Epiphone

vic · 2009-07-31T21:41:00+00:00

Hi guys I need some advice...I am thinking of getting an Epiphone electric for "everyday use". What's your experience with these in terms of quality, sound,...

Epiphone

vic

Hi,
Singemonkey makes some interesting statements....whenever I get the time I will try and verify these.

I think your Deluxe may have a 3 piece neck as well. You may wish to check (google )... provide net/vintage gibson for more info.

vic

singemonkey wrote: However, even for that, the Tokai LS90 beats my LP in some ways. My LP, for example, has a three-piece top, and may have a three-piece neck (hard to say since it's black - I'll have to find out through a forum).

a 3 piece body or neck is not necessarily a bad thing....these are more resistant to warping especially under changing ambient conditions found in most homes.
Most important is...how does your LP sound ? And have you perhaps compared the Tokai to your LP in terms of sound quality?

AlanRatcliffe

Three piece neck good. Three piece body, not so good (but not bad, per se).

vic

Singemonkey is CORRECT.
Since '82/83 regular Les Pauls (non-customshop models) have been weight relieved in one form or another. Thanks for the info.
It shows that we all can learn a lot on this forum!
Vic

aubs1

vic wrote: Singemonkey is CORRECT.
Since '82/83 regular Les Pauls (non-customshop models) have been weight relieved in one form or another. Thanks for the info.
It shows that we all can learn a lot on this forum!
Vic

Hell, now I know a bit more about my Les Paul, thanx Singemonkey.......never really paid much attention to all this stuff...... ? ?

AlanRatcliffe

I find it funny that if you buy a "Chambered" Warmoth body, you pay $100 extra for the privilege ($275 vs. the standard body's $175), but for Les Pauls "weight-relief" is regarded as a bad thing. Marketing I suppose.

[deleted]

And a body that's been eaten through by worms/molluscs is even more valuable. Go figure.

AlanRatcliffe

Stratisfear wrote: And a body that's been eaten through by worms/molluscs is even more valuable. Go figure.

That's a Benedetto, so I can understand that. Bob could carve good tone out of a tomato box!

Explorerlover

Bob could carve good tone out of a tomato box!
[/quote]

Always wondered how that would turn out ?

singemonkey

The thing I think, that's irritating about Gibson - pretty much since 1965 - is the way they ignore what people want. "This is how you want it really. No. You do want it this way."

There's nothing wrong with weight relief per se. It's especially important to people with bad backs who want to play an LP standing up. But here's the problem in a nutshell: it's not an option. You have to have weight relief whether you want it or not. Lots of people, including me, don't. A lot of Gibson fans basically want the Les Pauls they made in the 50's. Not just kind of like them. We want the same guitars. We felt they were perfect. The guitars that made us want Les Pauls were those.

But Gibson consistently refused to give us those guitars again. When people started buying Japanese replicas (Tokais, Burneys, Yamahas, Grecos, Ibanezs, etc.) Gibson first sued them so they generally don't sell outside the far east (well done Tokai SA for getting them here), and then started making their own replicas in their custom shop.

Except that they cost so much, that they're not really filling in for the need that Tokai buyers felt, they're compensating for the fact that the originals are now too much for even the very well heeled. In 1980, you could buy a '59 Standard for about $5,000. Very expensive. But of course now they cost $400,000. So the people who would have bought an original can now by a VOS custom shop model. The rest of us have to look at Les Pauls that are very different to 50's models, and made to way lower quality standards (not all bad, but you certainly wouldn't want to buy one sight unseen). No choice.

Except to once more turn to Japanese makers - producing replicas of the 50's/60's guitars, but at sane prices and to typically Japanese standards of quality.

My Deluxe sounds the business. No question. Of course, that was after I hoiked out the Epiphone mini-humbuckers (crap, imo) and put in Jason Lollar P-90s. Now it's got that Live-at-Leeds p-90 roar that can set the shivers going. It's a good guitar.

Now until you get to the Tokais with solid flame tops ('59 standard spec - and over R20,000), they have Gotoh pickups. Not the best in the world. Not as good as Gibson pickups, I'll admit. But not rubbish. Course pickups aren't that pricy. It's the guitar underneath. This is the cheapest vintage spec Tokai - the LS150. It's a replica of a '58 LP Standard and will go for about R15,000 in SA.

vic

singemonkey wrote:
This is the cheapest vintage spec Tokai - the LS150. It's a replica of a '58 LP Standard and will go for about R15,000 in SA.

At that price there will be people who will be much tempted to add another R15000 or so and buy the real (customshop) thing. You can get one right now for R30000 in Cape Town

singemonkey

vic wrote: At that price there will be people who will be much tempted to add another R15000 or so and buy the real (customshop) thing. You can get one right now for R30000 in Cape Town

At that price people might be tempted to spend half the cost of a Gibson replica, and buy the Tokai replica ?

Bear in mind that many people, myself included, would be able to drum up R15,000 for a guitar, but no way R30,000. For R15,000 less (hardly chicken feed) you get the same guitar, different name on the headstock, different pickups.

Gibsons custom shops are no more "real" given that none of the people involved in making 50's Les Pauls currently work at the factory.

AlanRatcliffe

singemonkey wrote: A lot of Gibson fans basically want the Les Pauls they made in the 50's. Not just kind of like them. We want the same guitars.

And you are not going to get them. From anyone, anywhere, at any price. We've been told that the various reissues they have been bringing out since the '80s were "just like" the late '50s models, but they weren't. Construction wise, the modern VOS are probably closest, but the wood isn't around any more. One of the important things about those late '50s instruments that ensures their prices stay astronomical is we will not see their like again.

When people started buying Japanese replicas (Tokais, Burneys, Yamahas, Grecos, Ibanezs, etc.) Gibson first sued them so they generally don't sell outside the far east

Gibson didn't sue those companies for copying the guitars - they sued them for copying the headstock, which is trademarked. Fair enough, IMO. In fact, they didn't sue many of those companies at all, because most weren't copying the headstock.

Except to once more turn to Japanese makers - producing replicas of the 50's/60's guitars, but at sane prices and to typically Japanese standards of quality.

I'm a fan of various Japanese guitars, but I still wouldn't say they are producing models comparable with 50 year old models. The majority of them are still mass produced. And the value of any of them is half what it should be on the secondhand market - an important consideration for any guitar in the +20,000 price bracket IMO.

You want to buy a "Les Paul" that is as good as a VOS (arguably better), cheaper and will probably appreciate in value in the long run? The guitars that made Gibson do some research to find out what they were doing wrong and ultimately arrive at the VOS guitars? The company that inspired Gibson to start installing Plek machines and start using them so they could still compete? Heritage... Made in the old Gibson factory on (mostly) the old Gibson machinery by mostly old Gibson employees. Higher and more consistent quality standards. Relatively inexpensive and already holding their price well. Probably future classics.

vic

singemonkey wrote:
vic wrote: At that price there will be people who will be much tempted to add another R15000 or so and buy the real (customshop) thing. You can get one right now for R30000 in Cape Town
At that price people might be tempted to spend half the cost of a Gibson replica, and buy the Tokai replica ?

Bear in mind that many people, myself included, would be able to drum up R15,000 for a guitar, but no way R30,000. For R15,000 less (hardly chicken feed) you get the same guitar, different name on the headstock, different pickups.

Gibsons custom shops are no more "real" given that none of the people involved in making 50's Les Pauls currently work at the factory.

Jaaa...another way of thinking about things....but that's what makes this forum sooo interesting.

singemonkey

And I certainly won't deny that custom shop gibsons aren't fantastic guitars ?

vic

singemonkey wrote:

Gibsons custom shops are no more "real" given that none of the people involved in making 50's Les Pauls currently work at the factory.
[/quote]

Sure....same goes for customshop Fenders, Gretsch, and the likes. All of these craftsman must by now be long retired or sadly, departed.

vic

singemonkey wrote: And I certainly won't deny that custom shop gibsons aren't fantastic guitars ?

Thanks Singemonkey. If you ever come to Stellies, pop in and have a bash on mine through a '63 Vox AC30 ....big warm clean sounds or dirty if you like.
Vic

Banditman

As much as I'm a Gibson fan, I really do feel that the Custom is overrated - or should that be overpriced. Forget that it was built in Memphis by skilled luthiers born under the stage of the Grand Ole Opry. It's a solid colour Les Paul with multi-layer binding and a solid finish, fitted with the same Burstbuckers you get in many of their other Les Paul models. Sure it's a great looking guitar, especially in black, but there are (my opinion) many more interesting and equally well-made Lesters in the line for equal or less money. I'd rather have a Les Paul Traditional - made to appease the non weight-relieved brigade , or for the same looks but vintage tone track down a Classic Custom which was made for about two years only (vintage binding and '57 Classic pickups) and cost the same as a Standard.

If I was paying Custom shop prices I'd rather go for a Pearly Gates, Warren Haynes, '59 Burst or '57 Goldtop. The Les Paul Custom's really not much more than a pricy cosmetic difference from the Standards and Traditionals.

vic

Banditman wrote: As much as I'm a Gibson fan, I really do feel that the Custom is overrated - or should that be overpriced. Forget that it was built in Memphis by skilled luthiers born under the stage of the Grand Ole Opry. It's a solid colour Les Paul with multi-layer binding and a solid finish, fitted with the same Burstbuckers you get in many of their other Les Paul models. Sure it's a great looking guitar, especially in black, but there are (my opinion) many more interesting and equally well-made Lesters in the line for equal or less money. I'd rather have a Les Paul Traditional - made to appease the non weight-relieved brigade , or for the same looks but vintage tone track down a Classic Custom which was made for about two years only (vintage binding and '57 Classic pickups) and cost the same as a Standard.

If I was paying Custom shop prices I'd rather go for a Pearly Gates, Warren Haynes, '59 Burst or '57 Goldtop. The Les Paul Custom's really not much more than a pricy cosmetic difference from the Standards and Traditionals.

You're right Banditman....however let's put the LP Custom in context. Its origin lies in the quest for a classy looking jazz guitar in the early 50's. During that time jazz musos would dress up for the occasion (bow ties,tuxedos etc).The Goldtop and the later Standard were regarded as run of the mill guitars, mainly used by rock 'n roll performers (Buddy Holly, Carl Perkins, etc.) Today may have been quite different if Clapton and Co used a Custom for their early work instead of a Standard.....?
But I agree, the Custom is way too expensive.

singemonkey

Thanks for the invite vic. I might just take you up on it one day ?

Regarding LP customs:

They kind of look cool to me for a little while, and then I start to dislike the ostentatious decoration. Then I'm ok with them again.

I think that the LP standard would probably have been discovered, even if not by Keith Richards or Clapton. There just wasn't anything else out there like that at the time, and I think its simple elegance would not have gone unnoticed.

I know Clapton bought his because he saw that Freddie King played a Les Paul (P-90 goldtop, I think) on a record cover and then found a 'burst in a store when he went looking.

But I've never heard how Keith came to buy his - the one that re-introduced LP standards to the world on the stones TV appearances in the states. I can't think of any of his idols who played them. Maybe he just liked Gibsons and thought they were cool.