Fender's finishes

MikeM

Fact:
All Fender Guitars made since 1963 are Polyester coated. Lacquer is put on top of the poly to satisfy the general publics belief that Nitro Cellulose (nitro) Lacquer finished guitars "breathe", "dry" and generally have become the bottom line for creating great tome. I'm talking USA, Vintage collectable instruments that the general public has bought, traded, and sold for over 50 years. They came from the Fender factor with a hard plastic jacket underneath it. A suffocating wolf, masquerading under a cloak of Lacquer Fender later switched to 100% Poly and UltraViolet cured Resin on Squire, Mexican, Japanese, some USA and all other imports till this day.

Source

Interesting... Nice one again Fender ?

AlanRatcliffe

True - the "Fullerplast" sealer/grain filler they have used for years is poly - even under the nitro "thinskin" finishes.

However, I'm firmly of the belief that it's more how it is applied than the type of finish itself.

MikeM

Care to elaborate on that second sentence Alan?

DonovanB

MikeM wrote Care to elaborate on that second sentence Alan?

lets just say naked and finishing a guitar dont mix.

AlanRatcliffe

A properly applied thin finish will not affect the tone appreciably, regardless of what kind of finish it is. Polyester has a bad rep because it's easy and quick to apply thickly and still cures hard quickly, so is usually used that way to save time on proper wood preparation. Applying it thick also saves time as you don't get sand-throughs during the sanding and polishing stages.

So it gets applied really thickly on inexpensive guitars to save labour costs, which is great for the manufacturer, because labour costs more than anything else. The hardness of the finish The problem with a thick, hard finish is it adds stiffness and weight, moving the resonant frequency up the frequency spectrum and damping the vibration of the body. I also suspect there is a bit of a "surface effect", where the vibration runs the surface rather than the wooden "core". All of this adds up to make a guitar brighter and harsher sounding. From a repair point-of-view, the polyester finishes are tricky because they don't redissolve in a solvent, which makes touch ups difficult.

I've refinished polyester guitars with polyester and made them sound totally different - warmer and more resonant - just by prepping the wood properly and applying the finish thinly. The last one I did (a Mex Strat) took only six days from dissasembly to reassembly ...in mid-winter - so poly certainly has it's advantages done properly.

MikeM

I see yes definately. Was not thinking in terms of finish thickness!

I've been hunting some nice stuff to finish my guitar and have pretty much settled on,

padding some shellac on
Grain fillind with CA
Spraying a Plascon waterbased varnish clear + top

Think this'd work? When'd I use a stain/dye to the wood - before the sealer(Shellac)?

Cheers
Mike

AlanRatcliffe

Stain is always first, direct to wood. Alcohol-based is better as it doesn't raise the grain like a water-based. Either way, wipe some of your solvent (water or alcohol) on the end-grain before staining to make sure the stain doesn't penetrate too deeply there (moot point if you're bursting the edges though). Double-staining is a good way to bring out the grain if you want to accentuate it a bit.

If you are using alcohol-based dyes for staining you can also use a mix of 3/4 alcohol to 1/4 acetone and then add a little nitro lacquer to prevent the stain from penetrating too deep and it doubles as the sealer (the acetone makes sure the nitro mixes in properly - also handy when you want to use the dye mix to tint a clear finish for shaders and toners). Otherwise a wash coat of shellac (dewaxed!) almost always works well as a sealer between different products.

CA usually works as a grain filler - specifically the medium to thick viscosities - (the thin tends to cure too quickly and sink in to the grain). Never use an accelerator though, as it will make the CA cloudy. However, in this case test first - water-borne finishes are unusual coalescing finishes which tend to be very fussy about the products they are applied to. Each manufacturer formulates them differently and each has different requirements - you might be forced to use a poly or vinyl grain filler or even something formulated specifically for water-borne topcoats. I don't know the Plascon WB finish, but ask Plascon if you have any doubts - they tend to be very good about responding to queries on their products.

MikeM

Aha, I will reply when I'm fully awake and fully sober ?

MikeM

Would it be easy to get a nice smooth stain when applying directly to wood? Otherwise great tips, will definately do that.

Don't have any lacquer so might skip that one ?

Ok cool, well I'm not really sure what else to use as grain filler - but will do some testing pretty soon, maybe shellac - CA - shellac will be safer.

Aha, - Check here

AlanRatcliffe

MikeM wrote Would it be easy to get a nice smooth stain when applying directly to wood?

Yup, wiping on is pretty easy (although a little practice beforehand never hurt). Spraying can be a bit tricky first time around, so avoid that.

What do you mean by "shellac (dewaxed!)", am I missing something?

Normal shellac is slightly waxy, which is fine for French polishing, but not for getting other finishes to adhere. the dewaxed shellac is the stuff to use.

Ok cool, well I'm not really sure what else to use as grain filler - but will do some testing pretty soon, maybe shellac - CA - shellac will be safer.

I just had a look at Plascon's site for the waterbased and clicked ('scuse the pun) that it's a varnish, not a lacquer. I'm not sure of the suitability for guitars and can't find a datasheet. Exterior varnishes as a group are often soft and can't be sanded or polished. Water-borne for guitars are special finishes and I'd say if you really want to use a WB, get either the one from Stewmac or the one from Luthier's Mercantile. How are you applying the finish, brush or spray?

MikeM

Ok cool, I tried when I was younger on something and it didn't turn out great, but now I'm smarter ? ?

Yea I read :-[ Decided to not be lazy and google.

It's a Plascon Industrial paint. Know anywhere I can upload a pdf?

A range of single pack, pre-catalysed, clear waterbased acrylic lacquers
PRODUCT USES
 Formulated for use on all interior wooden furniture and panelling
FEATURES
 Environmentally friendly  Good mar resistance
 Non-hazardous  No odour
 Fast drying  Good build and sanding characteristics
 Non-yellowing & Water clear  High solid content
 Multi-coat system  UV resistant
PRODUCT INFORMATION
RANGE HARDENER THINNING / CLEANING SPREADING RATE
Ultra Matt (FFW2010)
Matt (FFW2001)
Velvet (FFW2002)
Satin (FFW2003)
Gloss (FFW2006)
N/A Water
4 – 5 m2/L
depending on
overspray and
article size
PRODUCT APPLICATION
 Can be applied by conventional spray systems (preferably with stainless steel or aluminium
fluid components) at a pressure of 3.0 – 3.5 bar
 Recommended application viscosity of 18 - 20 seconds
 Ideal application weight of 100 – 120 g/m2

AlanRatcliffe

Looks alright - the good mar resistance and sanding characteristics are the important things. Water white and non yellowing means that even if you don't want an obvious stain on the wood, you might want to just apply a very light amber stain or toner coat - especially on light woods like maple - to prevent that pale look and give you more of the warmth you get from nitro.

preferably with stainless steel or aluminium fluid components

In other words, don't use a gun with iron parts 'cos it'll rust the hell out of them. ?

I'm actually interested to hear how it works out. When I first looked at the WB finishes, they had a bit of a bluish tint and weren't very durable (or nice to work with), but apparently the latest generation are quite good and more and more manufacturers are starting to use them for their high solids content and environmental advantages (although I suspect that regardless of what the marketing departments are telling us the "environmental advantages" the manufacturers are more interested in are more the "getting the EPA off our back ones, rather than the "save the planet" ones. ?).

MikeM

Awesome well surely the shellac case will help keep it looking warm?

Pretty excited to try it out, but Gearhead will be the main decider cause he's my source of spraying, but he has the stew mac stuff so i'm sure we'll hear about that soon anyway.

Gearhead

Gearhead would like to report soon but he's having problems getting the spray booth ready. Very frustrating to spend time on stuff that does not directly get your guitar any further. Anyway, I decided to do it right, instead of doing it quickly.
The type of paint does not matter much for the spraying here - I sunk a couple of rands into a DeVilbiss GT Pro gun which can be used with most products. I am going to paint a (rack) cabinet this weekend with water based paint, will report back asap.

MikeM

Wooo he is finally back! Awesome man.. No rush though, if you need help or extra hands, shout. Going to try and do the last of the woodwork this weekend!

AlanRatcliffe

That'd be great. Thanks Gearhead!