Riaan
Hey guys, I've been gassing after a 12 string acoustic for a long time now, and have started looking around on EBay. However the only time I've actually played one, was many years ago and that was very briefly - an Ibanez. I can't really remember how it played, etc.
Are they that more difficult to play than 6 strings? In terms of playability, what should one look for? Low as possible action? In terms of neck width (I have small hands) are there particular brands (or neck widths) recommended for small hands?
My favourite still is USA Ovation (I know what Alan is gonna say... ?), there's just something about that Ovation tone and look... but Takamine also looks nice, as does Alvarez, a brand I was unfamiliar with until recently but they are USA made, get good reviews and are reasonably priced. And then there is also the Godin A12, described as the "best sounding, easiest playing, 12 string guitar on the market".
Any particular brands that you can recommend for players new to 12 strings?
AlanRatcliffe
The Ovation 12-strings are a relatively easy playing neck. I'm not a fan of ovations in general, but for other reasons than playability. Takamine and Alvarez both do great 12-strings and the Guild and Gibson Jumbo style 12s are also good. Unless you get to play it, so you know exactly what you are getting (or it's coming from a well-trusted source), I would never buy a 12 secondhand - there's just too much that goes wrong with them.
Don't skimp on an acoustic 12-string. They are under a tremendous amount of pressure and cheaper models always develop problems very quickly. Tops are thicker than a 6-string, so take a powerful player to get decent volume and utilise properly (see SRV's Unplugged). Tops bellying up is common in cheap models, and most people don't realise until the action is way high. The neck must be fairly chunky (deep, but not necessarily wide) - a skinny neck will cause tuning problems and tend to warp quickly.
They are cows to play - not for a delicate player. Aside from needing a chunky neck and a heavier playing style, playability is mostly down to setup - and setup is down to how you want to play it. For strumming, a standard type setup works well, just setting the action as low as possible and dressing the frets perfectly to allow that. If you are wanting to play fingerstyle, there are a couple of tricks to setup. The nut cut is critical to a 12-string to make it playable and to avoid tuning problems. It's still going to be a cow to play properly when compared to a 6-string, so you better be prepared for that. But like anything, practice makes possible - but prepare to get beginner's type pains all over again and take your calluses to a whole new level.
[deleted]
+1 to everything Alan said. My first acoustic guitar was a cheapie 12-string, and that was a mistake. The top bellied up, and I feared for my life (from a bridge flying at high speed) even getting it close to concert pitch tuning. AND you're always buying bloody strings. Generally, more effort than it was worth (I still have it, but it's firewood in waiting), even if from time to time it did sound great in working order.
sepheritoh
I have the Ovation 12 sting and I'm very happy with it.
The neck is much wider than any of my 6 strings, so it took a bit getting used to. Even now, hand fatique creeps in much quicker.
AlanRatcliffe
Something I almost forgot - 12's are the only time I like the shorter Gibson scale length. Lets me use a slightly heavier set of strings so the G octave isn't too wimpy and makes it a bit easier to play too.
Squonk
I had an Ibanez once, but did not have the dedication and patience.
Eventually used it as a wider 6 string ?
Riaan
Thanks guys...sounds like 12 string guits are something for enthusiasts rather than for the occassional player. Think I will first go play on a few in the shops before I make up my mind. And save up for a good quality guitar if I decide to get one.
The more I look at that Godin A12....maybe it's time for a cold shower!
CDee
Riaan wrote:
The more I look at that Godin A12....maybe it's time for a cold shower!
Getting 2 X 6 string guitars that = 12 strings... 8)
Gearhead
(Enters booth and closes curtain)
"Forgive me father for I have sinned again. It's been two months since my last confession"
(a man dressed in a robe in the other half of the booth speaks?
"What is it you must confess, my son?"
"I have bought yet another guitar, father, a twelve string"
"Oh no Gearhead, is it you again? You weakling!"
etc.
From having had my early 70s Nippon Gakki FG230 for a couple of weeks now, I can add the following:
- the first thing I noticed when playing it before buying, was the narrow and low frets. This turns out to be favourable because it lets you fret the strings with a higher force without really bending the string, so you can get both strings well fretted while keeping intonation correct;
- the action higher up the neck is quite high but I'm not sure whether I will change this too much. The instrument is at its best when playing open chords and letting them ring lekker. Barre chords are tough to say the least, even F and B on 1st and 2nd take a bit of pain and practice. My conclusion is that, with the added power strumming Alan mentioned, you actually do not want action as low as on a 6-string.
- tuning is a bit of a bore, I am going to change the nut to sssssslllippery stuff and possibly add some compensation to get the notes higher up the neck to at least be able to be played. With those in place it will probably still take more than twice as long to tune the 12 strings properly than it takes for 6 on a normal guitar. I think this is because for every string there are 11 others that change the neck bow rather than 5: when changing all 12 you have to go back to the first for minor adjustments. This plus the fact that you don't get the resonance effect unless tuning is perfect.
Bottom line: I am going to sell my Fender DG3 because I like playing the 12-string a lot better for strumming chords. (For the other stuff I go for the Stratacoustic or an electric anyway) They are well worth getting if you like the sound.
AlanRatcliffe
Gearhead wrote:
"Forgive me father for I have sinned again. It's been two months since my last confession"
?
I am going to change the nut to sssssslllippery stuff
Highly recommended. Worked wonders with my electric 12.
I think this is because for every string there are 11 others that change the neck bow rather than 5: when changing all 12 you have to go back to the first for minor adjustments.
Yup, unless your neck is stiff as a carbon fibre neck. The weight of the tuning machines doesn't help either. Mine is a 2" wide mahogany neck and quite thick too (although I haven't measured it) and still you hear the tuning sharpen when you turn the guitar 90 degrees, so the back is parallel with the floor.
This plus the fact that you don't get the resonance effect unless tuning is perfect.
The chorusy effect actually comes from the two strings in each course being slightly out of tune.
Riaan
I haven't played around much with the Octaver gadget in Guitar Rig - only used the presets and didn't tweak it much - but I wonder if that could be used to emulate the sound of a twelve string if a 6 string acoustic is played through it? Seems it only plays octaves lower?
I've also read somewhere that a second guitar track with Nashville tuning added to a 6 string track using regular tuning sounds like a 12 string - anyone done that? (please remind me what Nashville tuning is again, I forgot!)
But then again, there still is that Godin A12....NO NO NO!!
AlanRatcliffe
Riaan wrote:
I haven't played around much with the Octaver gadget in Guitar Rig - only used the presets and didn't tweak it much - but I wonder if that could be used to emulate the sound of a twelve string if a 6 string acoustic is played through it? Seems it only plays octaves lower?
Any octaver is only octave (or two) down, but the pitch pedal has a range of two octaves up or down and can handle intervals and chords.
Shifting an octave and mixing it with the original works to fake a 12, but as with any pitch shift more than a fourth, it's a bit grungy and not quite realistic.
I've also read somewhere that a second guitar track with Nashville tuning added to a 6 string track using regular tuning sounds like a 12 string - anyone done that? (please remind me what Nashville tuning is again, I forgot!)
Nashville tuning is "the other half" of a 12-string - first two strings tuned normally, the other four an octave higher.
http://ratcliffe.co.za/articles/nashville.shtml
But then again, there still is that Godin A12....NO NO NO!!
Which I wouldn't hesitate to recommend.
Riaan
Which I wouldn't hesitate to recommend.
Oh man....birthday coming up soon, wife says she doesn't mind if I buy a guitar (really!). With apologies to Leonard Cohen: "There ain't no cure for GAS..." 8)
AlanRatcliffe
Riaan wrote:
With apologies to Leonard Cohen: "There ain't no cure for GAS..." 8)
There is y'know - buy it! And Lenny Cohen plays Godin. ?
What there ain't a cure for is getting
more GAS. So maybe it's better to say, there is a cure for gas, but no vaccination. ?
DaFiz
I was just about to post that ad..., and say it's just down the road from me and I'd love go and "checkitout" for you.
I sold my Epiphone 12string some years ago and never stopped being sorry about it. (Older Japanese built guitar with bolt-on neck) Foster set the intonation on that guitar and I'm yet to find another 12 string with such a lovely action. ?
AlanRatcliffe
Way overpriced IMO. Old doesn't always mean "vintage" or collectible. Morris was a cheap brand in their day and I wouldn't trust a 12-string that old unless it was one of the top brands. Even then I'd scrutinise it very carefully before buying.
Riaan
I've never even heard of Morris guitars before. I also thought this was overpriced.
DaFiz
Thanx for that Alan ? I'll be sure to ask question on this forum before I go out and part with my hard earned munny in future. Although that sounded pretty expensive new good quality guitars aren't cheap these days, and even the "name brand" ones appear to be made in China. It looks like a trap waiting to catch me out. ???
