Keira-WitherKay
chris77 wrote
Each to his own. I like my comfort zone ... I agree with the motto of "You dont work guitar, you Play it" and drowning myself in advanced theory sounds like work. I admire the skill and knowledge of the guys/gals who not only know the theory but can actually implement it as well, but the commitment needed for that is not one I am willing to make. (besides, I dont have a fraction of Arjun an Keiras talent!) I am in my happy place and the only scales here are the minor and major ones... [sits back calmly on the cool grass next to Fritz, waiting for some more posts to fly past over my head...]
ah chris. yeah i get where you coming from and totally agree. guitar must be fun... but am i a twisted person if i think theory is fun hhehhehhh cos i do. and in fact i'm not a a very technical player by classical or even jazz standards ...... but i have great technique and above all understand music..and how it fits together.......... and because of that know how to get anything i feel/hear outa my guitar yet my technique is more a hybrid of my influences , and i iritate the living daylights out of the seriously schooled musician by my attitude of improvissing each show .... as in i play same tune but if you recorded them each show is different,,,,,,, and quite radically so.. and i'm a believer in improvising . none of the solo's are ever worked out........ ...... and what i'm saying is theory opens up doors for me and allows me to play with music....cos i'm so comfortable with it ...... basically it allows me to experiment live and not be scared of losing it ... cos even if i slip up...... i'm comfortable that i can get back to the piece without it sounding like the wheels just fell off.........
so maybe it's horses for courses. since without my knowlege i couldn't do what i do..and ask any of the people who seen me i have so much fun performing ..... but yeah i'm not a theory addict either ....... and i believe that if you follow theory too literally you become quite a boring ,predictable player....... so yeah as one of my tutors back in the past said .. you learn the theory . then you forget the theory and just play.......... and allow the theory to subconsciously guide you
this is an interesting chat...
Manfred-Klose
Regarding the modes, and the way i learned it(haven't done this in a long time so i have to dust of some old memories ?):
*Get use to where all the notes on your fretboard sits, when playing a note knowing what that name is of that note(this might take awhile to get smooth)
*Start with key of C (meaning all the C,D,E,F,G,A,B notes on your guitar fretboard)
*Try and find ALL the key of C notes on your fretboard, you'll notice some sort of pattern emerge, this is called a scale.
*The modes that is being reffered to in the previous posts is patterns within the key you are playing.
Ok so you can play the modes in the key of C, so now what ?
get a backing track or record one of a few of these chords:
C Dm Em F G Am Bdiminished
.....now just play through the modes/scale doing improv.
How do i change to different keys? :
T= Tone (move 2 frets up)
S= SemiTone(move 1 fret up)
Maj= Major chord
Min= Minor
Dim=Diminished
Notice the pattern:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
C D E F G A B C
maj min min maj maj min dim maj
Ionian Dorian Phrygian Lydian Mixolydian Aeolian Locrian Ionian
T T S T T T S
The arrpeggios of the chords(notes played seperately to make up the chord), you can figure this out by just looking at the scale, notice the between to notes to identify the arpp. :
Cmaj = C E G(1 , 3 , 5)
Dmin = D F A(2 , 4 , 6)
Emin = E G B(3 , 5 , 7)
Fmaj = F A C (4, 6 , 1)
Gmaj = G B D (5, 7 ,2)
Amin = A C E (6 , 1 , 3)
Bdim = B D F (7 , 2 , 4)
Lets take key of D for example:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
D E F# G A B C# D
maj min min maj maj min dim maj
Ionian Dorian Phrygian Lydian Mixolydian Aeolian Locrian Ionian
T T S T T T S
Hope this helps anyone with better understanding music theory, this was kind a crash course in a way.
AlanRatcliffe
Thanks to the member who reported the earlier post containing a personal attack (you know who you are). It has now been deleted.
Once again folks, please report such posts instead of responding to them - makes moderation easier and lets them vanish without a trace when deleted. Now I've got to go through and cull all the responses...
[deleted]
I've got a fairly easy way of remembering modes. Manfred has it spot on, you need to improvise and get the feel of that sound. If you're playing a mode in C maj/min, ie. Dorian, then you play all the notes you would find in C maj/min, but you structure the improvisation on returning to the second note(D) as your root. Like in telling a story there will be conclusions, and in the Dorian mode the "conclusion" will land on D. The story will be different from returning to C, as you would usualy do in C maj/min, but you're using the same notes(scale).
If you want to work out the structure of a maj/min modal scale ie. Lydian starting on A, then you will know that the A will be the fifth note of a maj/min scale. You work backwards, and end up with D, so your Lydian mode on A will have the key signature of D maj/min.
chris77
Thats it. If there really is something like reincarnation, I wanna come back as Keira! Seriously, your approach to music is remarkable and only surpassed by your skill. And anybody that has seen you play (long live Youtube!) will agree that you really, really, REALLY seem to enjoy what you do, which to me is the most important thing.
WitBlitz
Uhmmm, eish! ???
evolucian
Right, I've seen a couple of threads like this over the years. Ok TS, explain modal composition please?
How would the modes help a beginner... with your current explanation?
[deleted]
The way I see it and use it, might not be the correct way, but here goes. Say you want to write a song that has a slightly different character, like perhaps wistful.There would be a number of ways you could accieve that effect, and one of those ways is venturing into the modes.
So if you were to be singing "Do a Deer", it does not "bring you back to Do", it brings you back to, well any of the other notes there are, like Mi. Remember, we're not putting in any extra notes or changing the Key signature, that's using modulation or passing notes. I repeat: notes that you wouldn't normally find in the scale you are using are not related to the modes. Using modes is just the practice of rearranging the usual flow of the notes.
The way I can see it there are no "rules" to this and it's up to your creativity to use the notes as you wish. These are just guidlines for if you want to express something you've got going around in your head and you're limited by the usual way you've been doing things.
Keira-WitherKay
evolucian wrote
Right, I've seen a couple of threads like this over the years. Ok TS, explain modal composition please?
How would the modes help a beginner... with your current explanation?
ok lets clarrify beginners......... do you mean beginners who have the relavent theory knowledge but just have not started to experiment into modes yet ?????????
for them i posted this a few posts up ... this is how you can use modes effectively in your playing style ........
since i was taught to use modes in 2 ways either by using modal scales as chord scales , so each chord has a a different mode used on it........... or secondly treated as key centres in their own right..... with a few chords that fit each modal scale.....
so anyway i think one needs to be 100% theoretically sound before attempting modes or it can lead to much confussion...... cos playing like this is not easy even for advanced players to do well ... without it sounding like scale practise rather than music........... heheheh
and in reality in my playing i use only 2 modes a lot......... the harmonic minor in 1st position for classical ....and the phrygian dominant mode for flamenco........ and then i use the related scales and chord tones.........
or by beginners do you mean people who still not have a full grasp on basic theory ...............?????? as complete knowledge of chord tones /keys and especially what chords are in every key / the usage of related scales ..........have explored the basic scales which are ....major/ natural minor/ harmonic minor/ melodic minor ..(classical) /melodic minor (jazz) / diminished (whole note , half note) and (half note whole notes scales) / chromatic scales/ pentatonic and blues scales( they similar execpt for one note )/ altered scale, whole tone scales and enigmatic scales ( to be used over altered chords ) ..........
the beginners in reality who do not have the theory yet .......... would benefit more from learning that theory ........... before getting into modes............. since till their theory is up to standard one can't use modes effectively........ since modal playing is not easy even for advanced players.......
cos in reality ....... and i can prove it ... heheheh modal playing is not essential to play well... many outstanding world class players do not play using modes......... and have built careers on the basic chord tone and basic scale knowlege and still they write and play great songs......... ever think zz top play modes????
but if you wanna do modal jazz and even prog rock..........hence the names then it's critical..........
so yeah maybe learn the basics of modes that it's just the scale using the next step to start on........... so you know what it is.. but before you try and implement it in playing get your theory up to date...... which also is not that hard . should take you 3 months
max to get up to speed.......... then attack modes........
peace and light
Keira
evolucian
nice replies from viccy and keira... though willem's woulda been the one I was waiting for ?
By beginners I mean beg-intermediate's who have learnt a scale... then see what their idols are doing and hear all about modes that they've used and then "simply" want to learn that so that they can play what Alexi Laiho or Vinnie Moore play... which is misleading to a big extent.
The opening post is a little misleading in that it is merely the seperation of the major scale at work there. Which in no way defines modes aside from the formulae... The sound is the issue here... each mode has its own characteristic sound as well as its own feel and emotion (varying from player to player). They have their own chord structures and progressions too, and if someone new to this has to pick the B locrian bastard of a scale and start to compose around it, the majority of the time they're going to end up resolving to C instead of B. Now lets say that someone new to this learns the progression side of the locrian somehow... they gonna land up in a looney bin if their character can't handle the extremely dark side of this scale (it is a humorous example only, and not to be taken seriously).
Modes do work best over chordal vamps, and for a beginner to this side of music... have those chord vamps available for the student or reader to experiment with. The initial post is merely the major scale without getting into the modes themselves.
I can understand why you would mainly use those two for your compositions and improv playing... and to each their own. When I say beginner it really does not mean a person who has been playing two months and now needs to step up their game to be on my level.... it merely means the beg-int players who are now starting to develop their ears and develop their own voices too... True modal composition would lie in the advanced category, and that can't come into this post because of the "basic" heading to this thread. Your scale seperation (keira) is cool and fair enough, but the whole tone does not have to be played only on altered chords. Depending on how outside you would like your line to be, you could use it anywhere, careful in the choice of your connecting chords...
Modal playing, I agree, is not essential to play well... but it does open various channels to explore which does not have to be jazz or prog rock. It can add a good subtle change to pop and still be a commercial success. The only limit is your imagination. Simplicity rules in the end. But for those willing to explore sound in a big way... remove the blinkers that a few teachers give and delve into possibilities that can broaden your playing and hearing levels immensely as well as intensely.
[deleted]
The sound is the issue here... each mode has its own characteristic sound as well as its own feel and emotion (varying from player to player).
Say you want to write a song that has a slightly different character, like perhaps wistful.
you need to improvise and get the feel of that sound
Sometimes I feel like no one reads my posts.
evolucian
sigh, ok... forget i said anything... use whatever you wish even though a reiteration is good... but really just highlight three lines that work for you that reiterate yr post to a degree which I thought was a good one... but yeah. You go for it. No rules... although some might really disagree with you there... but who gives a shit
***and if you really read it, you will see the opening line which does show that I read your post... I'm pretty sure that is what that line says... really really sure... super sure. I'm positive it said I did.
***"the sound" has not been elaborated on... and I would like to see it elaborated on. Its not my thread, so I don't want to intrude and claim the thread... You people have been here longer than I have.... I think this is my first post.. or few posts... so make it count. Go into details. How many people log into this forum? How many are wanting information? Not everyone can afford lessons and have to go by way of the net. If they stop off here for a second or two, and see nothing with huge amounts of info... they will go elsewhere. The music state in this country is not one to be proud of, rock is really dying in a big way. Players are discounting theory as a tool to be of any use to them (and that is this country). You go to a gig and ask the dude how he started and is carrying on what not... "Oh no... I'm self taught. Theory? Who needs it.. play from the soul man. Theory slows you down with rules".... bla bla bla. "Oh, I picked up a tab book and learned from that. I know all there is to know, trust me..."??????????
What the hell is that crap? I say do something about it. Let local players be aware that there are some smart people in this country who may care about their knowledge that doesn't come from the back of a Coco Pops box. Who aren't just wanting to line their pockets with cash from potential students they can zap from the net. You are teachers, are you not? Then do so... make it worthwhile coming here. There are alot of guitar forums around, and the members will go elsewhere. So educate our own... before the yanks get em hooked on bad spelling where aluminum apparently exists. My plea is to you teachers to jack this site up... the yanks love our jazz by the way... so lets hook them instead!
You will definitely not lose students with informative lessons and articles. Articles that don't primarily deal in shred (though the request on them would possibly be huge as I haven't scoured the site completely). If I rambled on a bit too much... then my apologies for wasting your time
[deleted]
Not everyone can afford lessons and have to go by way of the net.
I have to admit I'm one of those people. I got theory lessons in high school and I'm very gratefull for it, but after school I had to learn to apply what I had learned to learn more. And the internet was one of the places I sought information (when I eventualy got access to the internet). I am very sympathetic to people who want to learn in this way, and try to be as helpfull as possible.
I also fully understand your frustration at the tidal wave of "Coco Pops Box" compositions. I guess it just boils down to people enjoying what they play, and those who want a bit more from music must just make it themselves. That's my approach.
I also feel that verbal (or typed) explanations don't have very much impact compared to experiential and experimental discoveries, so my main objective is to encourage people to explore and develop their ear. Some things can only be understood from a certain level of aural training, and no amount of convincing or theoretical advice is going to change that IMO. That being said it is facinating and rewarding to combine aural training and theory.
About the "No Rules", this is a throw back from those years in high school when we'd be studying theory and we'd come accross something that didn't fit in with the rules and our theory teacher would just say, "that's an exception to the rule". In my mind that nullifies rules.
I feel that your post was informative, and I appreciate your interest in the furtherment of everyone's theoretical knowledge, but it was misleading when you asked for an explanation when you didn't need one. And if the advice I gave was satisfactory in some way, then some acknowledgemant of that, other than "that was a nice post....though" would have been appreciated. Especially if you were going to reiterate what I had already said .
To "jack the site up" is realy a matter of personal taste. Many people are very happy with it.
evolucian
No harm meant Viccy ?
Although it may seem to be a theory plea from my side... its also a practical plea too. Interaction would be awesome as several players share and freely give of themselves for others to learn from and be inspired for. I saw a jam section here, where they ask to jam... Why not have a jam section where we all jam to tracks and share... Modal knowledge can be increased tremendously if something like that was here. Like you say, text can only do so much... but audio examples would be so much more informative as well as a way to practice and learn from.
So no harm meant viccy...
[deleted]
Thought I'd attempt an example of modal use. I saw movies started to use them to convey some quirky drama. I think they used it in American Beauty as well. I hope this is right and anyone who is more knowledgable can correct me. I think the mode is Aeolian in Eflat maj. So that would be the C natural minor.
evolucian
can't watch it... seriously lacking in data... 11 more days.. and counting.. .. .. eagerly
chris77
Thanks Vicky, will watch it tonight.
Willem186
Wow, 60 days(since the last post), well let me start off by saying that a lot, if not everything said in the subsequent replies is worth reading, and very informative. There are smart, talented and foremost friendly people on this site, and the willingness to help and communicate different ideas, and ways of approaching modes or any other topic is invaluable. That's why these "Forums" exist, so that any musician can post and read freely so as to learn and improve.
My take on this subject is but one of many ways to define and understand the modes. I believe that as many helpful and valuable lessons posted here the better. If I can, in some small way, help someone to improve, and gain more joy out of their chosen art, then so be it. I urge those of you with more theoretical understanding, who have the technical prowess, to post your thoughts and tools to help improve and inspire everyone. It can only help raise the bar in S.A.
Off topic but important I think, go learn more guitar I must, or fear will lose ability to play, cannot let happen, must not let happen.
BobC
All
Sounds like the originator of this post is one of those lucky ones who has the brain power to memorize large amounts of information etc, and all the respect goes to them and I am not being sarcastic here. However, the only explanation of modes that has genuinely stuck with me, has been a DVD by a guy called Desi Serna and the main point he makes is that one cannot impose a mode on a progression. The key of the progression dictates the scale you would use for the melody / solo / improv and the chord which forms the tonal centre of the progression dictates the mode. For example, if you are playing in the key of C and your progression centers around the 5th degree ie G major, then your melody/solo/improv derived from the C Major scale, played over that chord progression, will produce Myxolydian mode. If your chord progression centers around Am (6th degree) then your melody/solo/improv derived from the C Major scale will produce Aeolian Mode. Same applies for progressions centering around C (Ionian will be produced if you play notes from the C Major scale over it). Desi uses real examples from all genres of guitar based music and for me his approach appears to make sense, at least for the level at which I apply modes. Another Key point is that it DOES NOT MATTER what your starting and finishing points are. ONLY the scale you use, which is dictated by the key, in the context of the progression, namely the chord which forms it's tonal center.
There may be more advanced theories / applications which may prove this approach wrong but for the level at which the average guitarist wants to understand and apply modes, this works. We all know modes is a major discussion point, and mostly a stumbling block which the majority of average / hobby guitarists just can't wrap their minds around. And hopefully we deserve to understand and apply this useful creative concept as much as any other guitarist?
Personally, I am normally a person who likes to nit-pick / split hairs and study things in full detail (as you can probably tell by the length of this message) and I only wish I could rattle off the different sharps / flats / intervals etc in all of the various modes, but modes never made a single iota of sense to me until it was explained this way and I saw it applied on the DVD. I have applied it myself using a loop station and jamming along with various chord progressions and it appears to work for me.
Some hardened theorists may object to this simplistic approach but for those who want a lay-person's explanation of modes which you can actually use straight away, check out Desi's DVD. You do need to know the major scale patterns and basic chord progression theory but this is a refreshing and effective way of approaching modes. I have Frank Gambale's DVD and it must be just me but I remained confused. No doubt the guy is a musical genius at a level I could never hope to approach. Please don't interpret this as a comment against Frank Gamable's musical knowledge or abilities, as that is not the intention. My intention is merely to point people to an alternative explanation of the same topic. One which I am confident some guitarists are still having trouble with. Maybe I am just one of those folks with a mental block for that approach, but something tells me I am not alone. I could never understand the topic of modes prior to this DVD by Desi Serna. Like some members have posted, I always THOUGHT I MAYBE understood, but could never really apply it as the basic premise seems to be that you can impose or force a mode on any chord progression simply by changing your starting and ending points on the scale you use over that progression.
Standing by for flames and other forms of criticism ? but this is genuinely what worked for me. I won't pretend to be in a position to defend myself with anything more than the basic explanation I have already offered but hopefully this sparks a discussion.
BobC
evolucian
^ The implied mode you speak of... yes, its a good way to think of it... but slightly incorrect.
If you have a standard progression, like a I-IV-V or a ii-V-I... you aren't playing a mode per se.... but merely playing in the key. If you were doing the progression in a minor key, you'd be playing in said minor.
However... you could have a two or three chord vamp in which you deviate from your normal key and apply a different key in order to flavour the chords. That could be argued as being modal... now the progression didn't change... just your note order did... and this could be your entry into the no man's land... this is where your imagination can let rip or fall onto a landmine... if you happen to be on a landmine (or rather were)... pull an osiris and gather yurself up again and continue to explore...
Hope this wasn't cryptic at all
