Electrafying a nylon string

Heath

i want to electrafy my nylon string guitar and found a local supplier on one of these (HT-MC) , basically a microphone and piezo blender

http://www.artecsound.com/acou/ht.htm

what do guy/gals think , and how well does a piezo work with a nylon string .

AlanRatcliffe

I don't know their dual systems, but I always used to curse fitting the Artec undersaddles - they were a nightmare to get balanced and the preamps were noisy. Eventually I just started charging twice a much to fit them and people got the message and started buying the Fishmans, etc.

Nylon is easy to amplify, but difficult to amplify well - most inexpensive systems end up sounding way to percussive and tinny or boxy sounding. Do yourself a favour and get a good system - Fishman, Baggs, Highlander, etc. - it's worth it for the ease of install, the sound quality and long-term reliability.

TomCat

Alan Ratcliffe wrote I don't know their dual systems, but I always used to curse fitting the Artec undersaddles - they were a nightmare to get balanced and the preamps were noisy. Eventually I just started charging twice a much to fit them and people got the message and started buying the Fishmans, etc.

Nylon is easy to amplify, but difficult to amplify well - most inexpensive systems end up sounding way to percussive and tinny or boxy sounding. Do yourself a favour and get a good system - Fishman, Baggs, Highlander, etc. - it's worth it for the ease of install, the sound quality and long-term reliability.

@Alan. Slightly off topic, but what is your opinion on the value of a preamp that also includes the notch filter?

Riaan-Combrink

TomCat wrote @Alan. Slightly off topic, but what is your opinion on the value of a preamp that also includes the notch filter?

And, what does a notch filter do? :-[

I have a Fishman Prefix Plus on my SFX, but I'm not really sure. I just set it at 5 to midnight 'cause the salesman said so! Their site says: 'This knob cuts, by a fixed -15db, any frequency from 40Hz-500Hz. This, combined with the Phase switch, offers much more effective feedback control than the regular Fishman Prefix' - but how does it choose which frequency? Does it work in concert with the frequency slider at the bottom, knockin -15db off whatever that slider's set to? I won't even ask how to set that slider! Are there any practical things to listen out for when applying it? I guess I can summarise it to: if I hear no feedback, can I ignore the notch button?! ???

http://www.shorelinemusic.com/amplification/fishman_prefix.shtml

http://www.shorelinemusic.com/amplification/prefixplus1.html

TomCat

Hi Riaan

There are two features here that provide a similar function.

1. Notch filter. The rotary knob selects a frequency to insert -15dB notch to. This is a very narrow filter so there should be little effect on the tone of the guitar. If you find that the guitar is giving feedbackon your loudspeakers, slowly turn the notch filter knob until the feedback goes away. You will have then inserted the notch at the frequency where the feedback was happening. With Acoustics this is usually at the bass Frequencies (100 to 200Hz region). Rolling off the bass equalizer slightly on the preamp will also help.

2. The phase invert works a little differently,although the end result is similar. The phase invert will reverse the signal polarity at the selected frequency, creating a notch at the selected frequency point.

To Use: Use the notchfilter first to reduce feedback. if the feedback persists add the phase invert, but only when necessary to help preserve tone.

If you have no feedback, do not use the notch filter or phase reverse.

Hope that clarifies.Cheers

Bob-Dubery

+1 on what Alan said. Rather go for a good quality system - Fishman, Baggs etc. It may cost a bit more but you will get what you pay for. And many systems from those vendors can be mounted unobtrusively and without major surgery to the guitar. Speak to the tech who is going to do the job and agree on things like placing of the bagg, box or clip that holds the battery.

Heath

What you mean i am the tech thats gonna be installing the unit *grin* it really not an expensive guitar but if i need to use it on stage or for recording then i would like to know that i can , busy looking at the fishman , i see toms is the agents , so an excuse to goto toms over the weekend during there sale and have a look at them

but at the moment the dual system might be what i am after . but i will have a look

Riaan-Combrink

TomCat wrote Hi Riaan
There are two features here that provide a similar function.
1. Notch filter. The rotary knob selects a frequency to insert -15dB notch to. This is a very narrow filter so there should be little effect on the tone of the guitar. If you find that the guitar is giving feedbackon your loudspeakers, slowly turn the notch filter knob until the feedback goes away. You will have then inserted the notch at the frequency where the feedback was happening. With Acoustics this is usually at the bass Frequencies (100 to 200Hz region). Rolling off the bass equalizer slightly on the preamp will also help.
2. The phase invert works a little differently,although the end result is similar. The phase invert will reverse the signal polarity at the selected frequency, creating a notch at the selected frequency point.
To Use: Use the notchfilter first to reduce feedback. if the feedback persists add the phase invert, but only when necessary to help preserve tone.
If you have no feedback, do not use the notch filter or phase reverse.
Hope that clarifies.Cheers

That makes sense, even to me! Clear explanation - on with the 101 thread!!

Thanks, Tom. Much appreciated. ?

I like when you read GFSA and a post just speaks to an issue bugging you, that you haven't articulated!

Bob-Dubery

Tailon. wrote What you mean i am the tech thats gonna be installing the unit *grin* it really not an expensive guitar but if i need to use it on stage or for recording then i would like to know that i can , busy looking at the fishman , i see toms is the agents , so an excuse to goto toms over the weekend during there sale and have a look at them

but at the moment the dual system might be what i am after . but i will have a look

Another thing to consider is that if you don't have to cut holes in the body then you can remove the system later and leaving the guitar essentially unmodified.

Keira-WitherKay

yeah just another +1 to what alan and bob said ..... as a pro nylon player i can say unless you get cool tone you will hate using the guitar ......... no such thing as a quick/cheap system for nylon.... and yes i would recommend a dual system.... the undersaddle gives you the main sound but the nuances come from the condenser mic ...and take it out and the guitar sounds flat ......... i mean toneless not pitch flat hehehhe

the key to a nylon sound is to have it sound as good acoustically to plugged in ....

and bob is right the LR baggs has a dual system designed for nylons that fits without having to cut the instrument ....

yeah tell us what you decide.... also be keen to hear this system you looking at if you decide to go with it .... since i don't know it at all....

another thing to consider is if you wanting to fit a pickup....is why?????? is the guitar good enough quality????
since it might cost a lot to retrofit a descent pickup ...and as alan said you can't do this nylon amplification on the cheap...... so maybe cheaper to buy a new guitar with a system fitted.... like the yamaha cgx range or apx they not too expensive and sound damn good....

peace and light
Keira

Riaan-Combrink

Keira WitherKay wrote maybe cheaper to buy a new guitar with a system fitted.... like the yamaha cgx range or apx they not too expensive and sound damn good....

@ (K)/Eira (or anyone!): What, in your opinion, is the best value for money (R 5 000 or less?) in those ranges?

I've always wanted a nylon (for stage). My last GAS emmission almost led to divorce, but it doesn't hurt to gather information, I suppose ... ?

Keira-WitherKay

hello Riaan, well i would 1st look 2nd hand .... cos for R5000 second hand you could get a real nice guitar ...

you seen my guitar in the you tube videos i just posted on site thats a narrow body (by about 5 cm... and smaller bodied yamaha CGX series ... and i think wizard says he can get em for about R6000 when discounted....from about R9000 (desparate times for music stores) they in my mind great but i'm hugely biased towards yamaha nylons ... but even listen to tone on video...sounds like a nylon.... not clanky or unnatural.... and the build is excellent....

ibanez make a few models.... and so do cort but cort nylons just don't cut it in my book .....

one to look out for is the tanglewoods.... they make a very thin bodied nylon that sounds awesome and only for about R3000 ...neck could be better ect ect ... but for the price best bang for your buck....

but as always try it out .... even try the real low budget guitars and try find that gem...one never knows....

also depends what you want to do with it... play classical pieces or just do stings "fragile" in your set? or play serious acoustic jazz.... cos for every need the requirements change.....

but second hand is best option.... cos the cheap guitars do sometimes sound cheap

Riaan-Combrink

Keira WitherKay wrote also depends what you want to do with it... play classical pieces or just do stings "fragile" in your set?

That really is about it - so it would seem like the Tanglewood may not be a bad option in that case. But I'll also watch for 2ndhand.

Thanks, Keira

AlanRatcliffe

TomCat wrote @Alan. Slightly off topic, but what is your opinion on the value of a preamp that also includes the notch filter?

They are invaluable for a louder stage and simple to use. Most of the time you don't need them, but when you do they can get you anywhere up to an extra 6 - 12dB before feedback, which makes a huge difference in how much you can crank the guitar in the stage mix.

I've got to be honest, I prefer a parametric EQ set with a narrow Q, then I can vary the cut by no more than the amount needed. The problem with bigger cuts is that regardless of how narrow the Q, it starts getting wider as the cut gets bigger and I find it becomes an audible notch in the spectrum from 9dB cuts and up.