Ray
OK, so this nylon string guitar got a setup and the action lowered. It actually plays nice and easy now. Just that the D string has got an issue now. At the 9th fret the winding is all damaged. From what, I dont know. Also, it seems to buz hellish at that point and progressively as you head nutwards and none when you head higher up above that fret. Could it be the fret causing the damage? With my uneducated eye the frets appear to be the same height. Could it be a faulty string? I am going to slap on a new set of strings to see if the same situation develops again after some traffic on the string but just thought maybe someone has had this problem before as well.
another thing (or two). As I understand it, nylon strings come in tensions and steel strings in gauges. Yes? I guess it is a pretty personal thing but is there any recommended tension? I am inclined to go for a set with more tension. Also, I have read that many guitarists change the 3 base strings twice for each one change of the top 3. And lo and behold, I have seen strings advertised like that as well ie. two sets of the 3 base strings within one set of strings. Is that regular practise? (should that be with s or c?).
Tnx
Ray
AlanRatcliffe
Yes, it's common to wear out the basses much faster than the trebles - especially the D string, which is at a higher tension than the others. By steel string standards, the alloys used to wrap nylon strings are relatively soft and the harder frets wear through them quickly the more you play. Most classical players I know keep a spare set and a couple of D strings - they'll replace the D once or twice but if one of the others goes, they'll replace the whole set. Flamenco players will usually replace all the basses two or three times for every set of trebles. Unrelated, but I've also noticed a lot of dedicated nylon players will use different brands of trebles and basses.
The higher tension the strings the faster the wound strings will wear - I get only one to three weeks out of a set of very high tension Savarez flamenco strings, depending on how much I play, and it's not uncommon to have the D snap when I'm nowhere near the guitar.
If you want to try a higher tension set, the D'Addario ProArte hard tension are recommended.
AlanRatcliffe
Almost forgot: also check the surface of the fret by scraping your thumbnail lengthwise along the top - you'll immediately feel any roughness.
Keira-WitherKay
hello Ray, as for your buzz, check your string height.... and as Alan suggested feel if the fret is rough and causing the delicate winding to frey ...which is a sign of wear on the EAD strings
as for tension , this is the realm of personal preference..... i know Alan likes high tension, i tried it and disliked it , but i also tried pro arte low tension and i found them too thin sounding, so i settle for d'Addario (how do you spell that) pro arte normal tension and then to get the desired feel of low tension i detune the entire guitar to Eb then place a capo on the 1st fret to return to concert pitch.... you can see many flamenco players doing this capo on the 1st fret with detuning..... paco di lucia uses it a lot and so does vincente amigo, i tried it and and now this is my permanent setup, and i get a great sound and enjoy a softer tension but still have the fat tone.
as i started saying Ray this is all personal preferences and i suggest you play around with string makes and tensions till you find what works for you and what tone you prefer .... since nylon string guitars are reliant the guitar and strings giving the tone, not like electrics where the option of pedals and tone changing fx can be used.... so yeah get your nylon sounding and feeling like you prefer it....
with a nylon we are limited to one tone per instrument but isn't it just a beautiful tone.
oh and as for frequency of changing , i use my guitar a lot at least 5 to 7 hours a day so i change strings about every 10 days, not cos they wear out , but just being a pro musician i never want a string to break in a show, and i play from 3 to 5 shows a weeks, so no risking a break....
and use pro arte normal tension, just as they are no mix and match....
i must say i am happy with pro artes and they have a great tone and if i keep my changing schedule do not break .... which is awesome since because of my percussive style i abuse the strings way more in one show than a classical player ever will over 3 weeks....so if i don't change as often i will break em for sure .... and most importantly for my tastes the high E of the pro artes has a nice warm fat sound, which is my prerequisite for a string....
peace and light
Keira
Ray
Thanks Alan and Keira. Always get such constuctive input from you. I plan to go for the normal tension D'Addario so took a look at thier site. Hell, quite a selection just in Pro Arte series strings. A paco de Lucia I am not so I am not going to start using the capo thing just yet. Just learning the guitar now but had some classical training as a yungstah so that helps.
Ray
Ya well, I changed the strings with Pro Arte normal tension. Sorted out the main problem on the D string. I checked the frets and they seem smooth to me. What I think though is that I got the action set too low. Because on the low E, A, D strings I get a bit of buzz when plucking ( right word?) hard. But I like it low like this, comfortable to play. One thing though, I find the treble strings a bit slack. By that I mean they seem to just give way under fretting hand fingers. Also dont seem to ring out (would that be sustain?) as much as the wound strings. So my thinking is maybe just replace those treble strings with hard tension. Now, probably also a cause of the low action is I find that the lower stings sort of give a funny note when I fret them, so I get like two notes every time: the one is the note I pluck and the other a sort of metally jingle sound. You know, I'm not going to be too ambitious with this guitar as it is a cheap Yamaha CG100A. For the time being I am getting a decent sound (I think) and it serves it's purpose. But at Lovemore's the other day I spotted a CGX (cant remember the rest) going for 7.9 and they said they'd give it to me for 6K. It's a sharp guitar and I must get it.
Gearhead
The lower action will always lead to more buzz. It's a trade-off that no-one can get away from (though it's rumoured that very very expensive guitars don't have it ???) because of the amplitude of the string vibration. The only thing would be to pluck less hard and, if you then lack volume, amplify.
The second note you hear is most probably the string between fret and nut. Sitting so close to the neck and probably not playing very loudly, you will be able to hear it. In fact, it would mean that at least the neck of your guitar is vibrant, alive and does not kill sustain. The other good news is, 99% of people listening to you do not.
Because of the low mass of your unwound strings, they do not carry so much energy and therefore do not sustain as well. A higher tension set might help but you have to realise that this is part of the sound of a nylon string guitar - unless of course it is abnormally short. Try comparing to records.
Keira-WitherKay
hello Ray , yeah if it's the Yamaha CGX 111 or 171 it's a great guitar .... and of course i would say this cos it's the nylon i use live.... i have dragged it across the world and it plays and sounds awesome.... heheheh it has a cutaway and a narrower body cos it's more designed to be played "plugged in" not as a recital classical....
i have said this before but i have battled to find a nylon better than this to play live and "plugged"
as for your buzz .... well without hearing the guitar it's hard to say.... but i have an extremely low action for a nylon (flat as an electric) but i adjust to it by not playing to hard...
anyway on a nylon you will see that there is a pressure of playing that is ideal and as soon as you play harder the tone of the instrument changes.... i try play in this ..sweet spot all the time... also too soft will lose the tone.... anyway if you ever near midrand pop in and bring the guitar ...
the last thing is maybe the guy who set it up set it up a fraction too low....i mean we talking millimetres here .... i'm sure luthiers make mistakes.... and at least it's easily remedied at a low cost of a plastic bridge piece and a piece of sandpaper.... i would remove the bridge you have in now ... and get another and either do it your self or get someone who is handy to do it and get the new bridge to be only a hint higher than the existing one... for a few rands you can see if you just have a case of the bridge being a fraction too low....
hope that helps in some way ...and i'm puzzled by the difference in volume you say you get from pro artes.... i use em as is for ages ...and my guitar is equally balanced.... i even use this guitar for studio sessions with standard pro art normal tensions.... .....also the pro artes are an accepted brand in the serious classical circles...as being reliably of a consistant quality .... so i find your problem quite odd with em.....
but hey as i always say.... if you don't like the strings or feel of them ....no matter what anyone else says...find strings that work for you ....
peace and light
Keira
Ray
Thanks Gearhead and Keira, for the handy things. It's not that I dont like the Pro Artes. They are certainly better than what I had. I had a set of Rotosounds on and the Pro Artes definitley feel and sound better. Just that maybe the way I play demands harder tension in trables. also read some good things on classical guitar forums about Pro Artes. As for raising the bridge, I think I'll give that a go as a DIY. Afterall I'm about to get another guitar. But I dont want to raise it helluva lot. Keira would you say R6K is good proce for that guitar I have in sights? Another thing, anyone have any opinions on the crossover nylon guitars? I see that Yamaha have an APX nylon and Alhambra also have a crossover.
Tnx - Ray
AlanRatcliffe
If you're used to steel or electrics, nylons do seem a little soft on the trebles. However, once you get used to the difference in tone, you'll actually find the treble to bass volume balance is better. You'll also start revelling in the different voices between treble and bass and realise it's a benefit, rather than a flaw.
Keira-WitherKay
well Ray , if it's the same guitar i have i bought mine new for about R3K a few years back ... yeah R6K if you have it is great ... as i said .... i use this as a professional instrument live and in studio.... i love it but hey maybe you should make sure you do too.... the build is of high quality and this instrument of mine has lived through a moisture laden humid rainy season in Thailand and a freezing winter in europe nd our hot summers and dry winters here in SA and i have tossed it in the hold on airplanes.... numerous times....plus i play very physically and use my guitar as a percussion instrument and hit it with my hands and even drummers brush's and not a problem not a crack ....i have worn off some of the finish but with my playing style it's understandable.... and the guitar i have is fitted with a B band pickup which is a very natural sounding p/up....
and the 171 comes with an internal condensor mic as well you can blend in.... ( i retro fitted a condenser into my guitar) and i get a fabulous sound.... in reality my combination of B band pick up and condenser mic and my crate amp( which i also took ages to find and also reproduces nylons superbly) is as natural and good a sound as i have heard from any "plugged nylon" for performances i just take a line out from amp and it is great ...
in fact for last 18 months i have actively been trying to 'replace" this guitar with something better .... a case of GAS and that feeling of well, i'm a pro player surely i should be playing a Rameriz or some handcrafted instrument .... but to date can't find anything to blow me away ...and i tried instruments that are in the R30 -40 K bracket .....but i keep A/B ing them to the nylon i have and i can't justify spending the money....
so a long story to let you know that for me, this guitar offers me a feel and build and sound i like..... yes i have tweaked it a bit... i got an italian luthier to set the action way low(he even removed some of the wood of the bridge to get it this low) and i have installed a condensor mic ...and run 2 outputs into my mini mixer one from B band and the other from the condenser.... and i have done the detune and capo thing..... which you know i use... and i have a guitar that for my needs is perfect.... and in reality i have stopped even looking to replace her... until she breaks or gets stolen .... this is as good as pllugged nylon's get ...
PLEASE I WANT TO MAKE IT KNOWN THAT I USE THIS GUITAR PLUGGED PROFESSIONALLY .... AND IT DOES HAVE A NARROWER BODY WHICH MEANS A LESS BASS HEAVY SOUND... SO IF YOU WANTING THE GUITAR FOR UNPLUGGED PLAYING ... THIS ONE SOUNDS GREAT AND NATURAL... BUT MORE TO THE FLAMENCO SOUND OF A LOW MID RATHER THAN A CLASSICAL DEEP BASS SOUND....
ok thats my review on my own instrument .... oh and one last point they reliable.... and i only appreciated that cos when i recently played a gig with albert meintjes his guitar ( a very expensive custom made instrument ....) had a pickup prob .... in last few songs and it died totally before the end of the gig even after he took a 2 min break to change the battery and he as all good showmen do...went on with the show and did 2 songs accapello to end the show...., .. so yeah nasty .... but the yamaha has never let me down yet ....and when you witness someones guitar dying onstage at a gig makes you appreciate that reliability ....
peace and light
Keira
Bob-Dubery
Strings are more of a black art then you can imagine. The Morgan has been sounding terrible lately - horribly out of tune. Eventually I figured out (with the help of a tuner) that the problem centered around the 3rd string. If I tuned it to concert pitch it was OK up to the 4th fret, slightly flat at 5, and by the time you got to the octave it was a semi-tone flat. But how could this just happen? I thought about it and figured that it couldn't be the guitar as the intonation was fine on all the other strings. So I changed the 3rd... no problemo. Somehow that string was bad, and in a rather odd way. Which seems to happen from time to time.
Gearhead
The intonation problem Bob mentions here is not black art at all: the fret spacing equation relies on the string to have an evenly distributed mass. If you were to put a slide on a string exactly over the twelfth fret and the mass on the bridge side would be higher than the mass on the nut side, the note you heard would be flat without a doubt. Wound strings will be more likely to have uneven mass distribution because of the way the winding is put on and the thinner this winding, the harder it is to control in production.
Bob-Dubery
Gearhead wrote
The intonation problem Bob mentions here is not black art at all: the fret spacing equation relies on the string to have an evenly distributed mass. If you were to put a slide on a string exactly over the twelfth fret and the mass on the bridge side would be higher than the mass on the nut side, the note you heard would be flat without a doubt. Wound strings will be more likely to have uneven mass distribution because of the way the winding is put on and the thinner this winding, the harder it is to control in production.
Aha! I've been told from time to time that in any given set of strings it's the thinnest round string that is most likely to give problems.
And now I have a good explanation as to why.
Thanks Gearhead ?
Ray
Keira WitherKay wrote
hello Ray , yeah if it's the Yamaha CGX 111 or 171 it's a great guitar .... and of course i would say this cos it's the nylon i use live.... i have dragged it across the world and it plays and sounds awesome.... heheheh it has a cutaway and a narrower body cos it's more designed to be played "plugged in" not as a recital classical....
i have said this before but i have battled to find a nylon better than this to play live and "plugged"
I noticed that the body was pretty slim. Actually I liked that. Playing the guitar "not plugged in" provided me with ample sound. Not planning any recitals to be honest, just playing for me. But it felt good in the hands, and it felt good playing, and it sounded pretty darned lekker. Then again, it is not an educated ear that I have.
As for the Pro Artes strings, the trebles seems to have a bit of a changed complexion after a couple of days. Maybe I just got used to them? But they sound and feel just fine now. Y'know, earlier this year I spent 5.5K on a Cort steel string acoustic and it is a nice guitar. But I actually think htat I shouldnt hav ebought it because all I'm doing is playing the el cheapo nylon I have. Oh well, I suppose I have it and it will come in useful. tnx agen everbod.
Keira-WitherKay
I noticed that the body was pretty slim. Actually I liked that. Playing the guitar "not plugged in" provided me with ample sound. Not planning any recitals to be honest, just playing for me. But it felt good in the hands, and it felt good playing, and it sounded pretty darned lekker. Then again, it is not an educated ear that I have.
yes Ray it has about a 1.5 - 2 cm thinner body than a standard classical.... and the body shape overall is smaller too (in proportion so you prob didn't notice) this is so to help with the feed back and bass boom from playing on a stage plugged in .... and it does not affect the plugged in bass end since i get fat bass and cut it ussually live
and no your ears are not untrained or uneducated this nylon is a good sounding one..... even unplugged....
just purist classical musicians would say it leant more to the flamenco side than classical....
but if you like it then you should not hesitate.... they awesome... and i also play mine unplugged at home all the time.... and i love the unplugged sound...and when i do sessions i have one line out from the b band one from the condenser in the guitar and the engineer always places a 2nd condenser jut to the rear of the sound hole and the sound is pro level... that even SABC studio's who i recently got called in to do a flamenco piece for had no prob with the tone of this mid priced yamaha .... and they even asked beforehand what guitars would i bring in.... so they obviously cared about the tone ....producer was happy ....
yeah can't go wrong if you buy it ...
peace and light
Keira
ps... you mentioned the APX range... they also great but i found the CGX was almost more aimed at the serious classical and flamenco (since they offer a flamenco model too with not a solid spruce top as mine is but i think solid sedar....( at the time i bought the classical model not the flamenco...and only since they did not have he flamenco models in stock ...and i liked this for both classical /jazz and flamenco ) i have played on the flamenco model(one of my students has one) and it is brighter but just as awesome plugged in.... whre as the APX is aimed at the crossover pop rock market where they have thinner necks.... and more of an electric feel.... but still great guitars
