Replacing machine heads

Bob-Dubery

Hi all,

My much loved Morgan is having problems in the machine head department - or that's my diagnosis. The guitar is about 6 years old.

Here's some photos so you can see what's on the guitar already.

The first shows a missing cover on the 3rd string machine head. This popped off about a year ago. Doesn't seem to have caused any real problem but looks unbecoming

The second shows a side on view....

Now what is happening is that the tuner on the 5th string is getting stiffer and stiffer. I've tried slackening off the little screw in the button, but all that does is allow more play, it doesn't ease movement.

Now it's not so stiff at this time that it's unusable, but I need to start thinking about how this may pan out. Because of the popped cover I'm thinking that maybe I should bite the bullet and replace the whole set.

Trying to get a set from the factory is something I've already tried. I'd much rather do that because the machine heads have the Morgan logo on them and so I preserve the authenticity of the guitar in this way. However, if they're going after 6 years then maybe they're not using good heads anyway. But that's moot because whilst Morgan make great sounding guitars as a company they are out to lunch - I've tried to get a set out of them, Hugh's Fine Guitars have tried, McGibbons have tried. You get nowhere, and not quickly either.

So maybe I need to think about putting good quality replacement machine heads on the guitar. I'm thinking Gotoh or Grover.

So what dimensions are important? What information do I need to provide to the supplier in order to get something that will fit properly?

AlanRatcliffe

Those are the Gotoh large tuning machines, with Schaller-style knobs - or knock-offs therof. Already pretty good tuners. Five to seven years is about right for a guitar used regularly.

You could move up the Gotoh range to the newer 510 tuning machines - AFAIK, near drop-in replacements and very nice quality. A lot of luthiers have started using these.

The key (sorry!) things to look out for are the diameter of the hole through the headstock (9.5 - 10mm on most modern tuners that use threaded collars), and the position of the screw - some are angled outwards like yours, some are perpendicular to the worm gear shaft. If you want to fit a different style of tuner, holes will need filling.

Many of the top steel string luthiers are moving to the Waverley tuners these days, which are old-fashioned, lightweight open-style tuners. Very nice quality, available with a wide variety of keys, but expensive. They use the vintage press fit collars, but you can use a set of conversion bushings to make them fit.

Bob-Dubery

Alan Ratcliffe wrote

Many of the top steel string luthiers are moving to theWaverley tuners[/url] these days, which are old-fashioned, lightweight open-style tuners. Very nice quality, available with a wide variety of keys, but expensive.

Yes. I've been shown a set of those already. Price was not discussed but I wasn't thinking in terms of "cheap".

To me they look like they shouldn't last as long because there's nothing sealed at the back. Looks more vulnerable.

Bob-Dubery

Alan Ratcliffe wrote You could move up the Gotoh range to the newer 510 tuning machines - AFAIK, near drop-in replacements and very nice quality. A lot of luthiers have started using these.

Thanks, Alan. Is there an advantage to the 510s, or do they just look cooler?

AlanRatcliffe

Bob Dubery wrote Yes. I've been shown a set of those already. Price was not discussed but I wasn't thinking in terms of "cheap".

To me they look like they shouldn't last as long because there's nothing sealed at the back. Looks more vulnerable.

The quality of a set of tuners is entirely down to the metals used and the precision with which the gears are made. The style is of minimal importance. The sealed styles became popular because at one point they were all made better than their open style counterparts. These days you get good and bad in all styles. It's possible to pay over $800 for the really high quality handmade sets!

Thanks, Alan. Is there an advantage to the 510s, or do they just look cooler?

They are better too. Tighter tolerance and a few tech innovations as far as lubrication and feel.

inflames

Thanks for the question Bob.
I need new machine heads on my accoustic too ?

Thanks for the answer Alan, I will pop in at Bothners tomorrow.

Regards,
Lean

Bob-Dubery

Bob Dubery wrote
Now what is happening is that the tuner on the 5th string is getting stiffer and stiffer. I've tried slackening off the little screw in the button, but all that does is allow more play, it doesn't ease movement.

Now it's not so stiff at this time that it's unusable, but I need to start thinking about how this may pan out. Because of the popped cover I'm thinking that maybe I should bite the bullet and replace the whole set.

mensions are important? What information do I need to provide to the supplier in order to get something that will fit properly?

I mentioned this at McGibbons and they said "let's have a quick look". 10 minutes later I got the guitar back with an explanation of how the worm gear had slipped out of alignment. Much better, and if I bought a set of strings (which I was going to do) and gave Joachim behind the counter a kiss (and he's not the worst looking bloke in the shop) then we were all square.

AlanRatcliffe

Great Bob! But with respect, if you gave Joachim a kiss, you're not all that square. ?

Bob-Dubery

Alan Ratcliffe wrote Great Bob! But with respect, if you gave Joachim a kiss, you're not all that square. ?

If you took even a cursory interest in British politics you'd know that one can be unspeakably square AND have a broad range of ... ermm... extra-curricular activities.

AlanRatcliffe

I'll avoid the politics other than to agree. ?

FenderBender

LOL!

@Al: I am keen to replace the machine heads on my Cort Zenox and my Samick SG. Any recommendations?

AlanRatcliffe

I quite like the Planet Waves Trim-Lok tuning machines for 3+3 headstocks (locking and they cut the string automatically), but otherwise Gotoh or Schaller. Either locking or vanilla.

Bob-Dubery

X-rated Bob wrote Trying to get a set from the factory is something I've already tried. I'd much rather do that because the machine heads have the Morgan logo on them and so I preserve the authenticity of the guitar in this way. However, if they're going after 6 years then maybe they're not using good heads anyway. But that's moot because whilst Morgan make great sounding guitars as a company they are out to lunch - I've tried to get a set out of them, Hugh's Fine Guitars have tried, McGibbons have tried. You get nowhere, and not quickly either.

In a moment of uncharacteristic optimism I e-mailed the factory again. I got a reply, we agreed a price, I paid them via pay-pal and voila! today I took delivery of a set of Morgan-branded machine heads, exactly the same as the ones originally fitted. Well packed, and complete with all the hardware.

I thought I should update the record on this.

zohn

Tuners/machines.... the subject of endless debate over on the Larrivee forum. It seems every owner there feels obliged to replace his machines with branded ones. Seems the folks of Larrivee took notice and all new models (except the 03-series) are now fitted with Schallers.
I believe the sealed tuners are just as subject to breakage as the open back-designs. Many a vintage Martin and Gibson are testimony to the durability of the Grovers and Klussons used back then.
Waverley are great machines too but I think much too expensive (custom made for Stewart & MacDonald and supplied by them).
I'm having these (nickel finished) Grover Sta-tites (open back) 18:1 fitted to my custom OM. They are great and very fair priced. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_solid_peghead_tuners/Grover_Tuners/Grover_18:1_Sta-Tites.html

zohn

X-rated Bob wrote AFAIK, near drop-in replacements and very nice quality. A lot of luthiers have started using these.

These are very popular upgrades, and the top models are often furnished with them like R-Taylor (Taylor's custom shop). I played a 9-series Taylor once which had those like in this photo - very smooth, precise and beautiful.