moving the nut , on a nylon is it possible??? what problems???

Keira-WitherKay

hello all, here is a technical question to all the tech heads out there,

i have successfully experimented with playing my nylon concert classical and detuning whole guitar down a step to Eb then placing a capo on 1st fret and it then brings it up to concert pitch again... but i now have a shortened scale length .... and a softer tension ...both which i favour...... and if you watch flamenco guitarists it is a common practise ...paco and many others can be seen doing this live..... on you tube.....

my prob is that with capo ... it loses tuning too easily and is hard to retune without removing it ..... and i also detune my low E for some songs so that upsets some songs...... i have noticed no differnce or problems in playing and intonation other than the tuning prob which is because of the capo.... and in live situation i need that tuning stability ....

so i was thinking why not just take the guitar to a luthier and have him/her remove the exsisting nut maybe shave down the fretboard a hint in the 1st fret and install a nut where the 1st fret is..... then i have a stable solution and i can touch up my tuning without removing capo's ...and i have the benefit of he shorter scale( even tommy emmanuells taylors have a shortened scale as does martin taylors custom guitars... so it is an accepted step in the "advanced fingerstyle" tecnique direction to have a slightly shortened scale.......also i'm in my mid 40's and i want to be performing at 60 still..

and those wicked flamenco stretch's are so much easier with shorter scale... and hopefully this will help protect my hands in the "down hill years " heheh pity we only learn this once we have abused our bodies so much musically....

so my question to you wonderfully clever technical people...is AM I MISSING SOMETHING ... as i said i tried it live for months now...and the tension and playablity and even intonation SEEM fine and the tone is different but good.... and i like it.... recently i reverted to concert pitch ...and the higher tension actually felt awkward for a while........so whats your technical input on this..... to me it seems like a good idea......

peace and light
Keira

Heath

dumb question would it not be easier to move the bridge forward slightly to compensate *looks @ alan*

Keira-WitherKay

no Tailon ...
on a guitar the frets shorten in length...so if i moved the bridge i would not shorten the distance between the frets .... so basically the 2nd fret which is a hint shorter than the 1st will now be the 1st and hence shorter.... alos i would rather mess with my neck than my solid spruce top....

so get the idea... try it on your guitar detune and place capo on 1st fret see how it effectively shortens all the frets....

yeah so shifting bridge is not an option since it won't decrease size of frets proportionally ...

AlanRatcliffe

Nope Tailon - that will throw the intonation out unless you refret the entire board with the shorter scale length. Bracing etc. is also optimised for the bridge position, so you would ideally have to rebrace (remove neck, remove binding, remove top, remove braces and reverse the process, putting them all back.

Keira - It could be done, but IMO, it'll be much better to get a shorter scale length instrument. Effectively moving the nut to the first fret introduces one problem - the break angle (and thus the downward pressure) of the strings in the nut is much lower as the headstock and tuners stay in the same position - this will affect the tone and be much more prone to problems of buzzing at the nut. Why not see about having something custom-made with a shorter scale?

Don't worry about losing your reach as you get ~~ancient~~ older - look at Andres Segovia. If you're playing every day, you'll keep your reach well into your 90's.

For myself, I like higher tension - I prefer the percussiveness and "snap" of the strings with a high tension and the ease I can get harmonics and tapped notes. I use the Savarez 520R strings (super high tension, but unwound trebles, unlike their P and PI sets) specifically for this.

MoJo-JoJoe

Bob-Dubery

MoJo JoJoe wrote: Keira, have you tried the G7th Classical Performance Capo?

The G7th might improve things - but I doubt it will solve Keira's problem completely. I have a G7th, and they definitely are in improvement in that they do not apply too much pressure to the strings (as can happen with spring-loaded models) or need fine-tuning when you use them in a different position (as can happen with things like Shubbs).

I think the G7th is a step forward, but will not completely solve Keira's problems.

If you can get one in SA that is (I bought mine in London).

My recommendation would be to practice on a steel string guitar for a while - preferably a model with longer scale length and wider finger board. A couple of months of that will result in stronger hands which will find the nylon strings a pretty easy proposition. Mind you, this might involve buying another guitar....

Keira-WitherKay

mmmm alan that ancient comment will lose you major brownie points hehehehh

as for segovia.... he plays mostly classical far less agressive than the flamenco, and he has got arthritis .... and all his latest works were severely critisised for the lack of agility .... he also in his later years plays pieces far slower than they should be too.... so yeah i think he 's struggling ...

cool i see your point re the angle ..... mmmm yes a biggie.... and no ways could i use high tension strings hehhehe tried em and hated them....

yes i have it in mind as we already discussed to get a shorter scale instrument built.... but still not finding the right luthier... and one who's not over the top price wise...i'm a pro muso... not a biz exec who has music as a hobby and the budget to buy boutique instruments.... but yes i am in the market .... and hopefully in next year or two will get that done.... firstly i'm sorting out a portable amp for my travelling.... and gearhead has been designing something from ground up... to fit my needs.... so i think thats priority one.....

and Mjo ... No i have not as yes i have used various clamp style capo's and a few wrap around ones...i see both paco de lucia and vincento amigo both players i admire use wrap around capo's for this purpose.???? the old traditional flamenco ones are used by paco and vincento seems by what i can make out on the videos just uses a jim dunlop wrap around you know those cheapies' hehehehh

i have one too it's better than the clamp type ones i have but retuning is a mission during a show.... i've got an aggressive playing style....so retuning is essential....and while i'm playing

but i will go check it out ....if it works problem solved... no luthier hehheheheh

thanks guys you are a great help

peace and light
K

Keira-WitherKay

hey Bob ... next time you come to a gig bring your capo...i'll try it out .... i'm doing that sunday lunch show again this week if you and the missus are in the area.....

and yeah the prob is not hand strength but ease of movement.... i find i can do so much more when i use the capo and detune.... and easily... yeah and as you know i have very long fingers so no prob with reach just want easier reach ....the shorter scale just makes more sense to me... why make my life harder than it needs be....i heard doyle dykes do that thing of play a shortened neck ...done by taylor of course... and the prototype he played for about a year was just what i had in mind a standard length neck just with a gap behind the nut.... he still joked that in that year only one person ever noticed he had a whole gap between the nut and the tuning pegs..... so anyway ... just always trying to find the little advantages....

thanks again all

.

AlanRatcliffe

Keira WitherKay wrote: mmmm alan that ancient comment will lose you major brownie points hehehehh

Damn! I'd nearly saved enough to get my very own brownie too. Oh well... ?

yes i have it in mind as we already discussed to get a shorter scale instrument built.... but still not finding the right luthier... and one who's not over the top price wise...

I had another idea though - perhaps you can run it by a few guys and get quotes:

It's possible to shorten the neck by removing the fingerboard, cutting the neck shorter at an angle and reattaching it as a scarf joint. Trim the board and reattach, refret and you're done. Many guitars are made with scarf joints these days (notably Ibanez), as it cuts wood waste and also increases the structural strength at the weak point where the angled headstock starts behind the nut (where Gibson guitars always break) without having to add a volute.

MoJo-JoJoe

Bob-Dubery

Keira WitherKay wrote: hey Bob ... next time you come to a gig bring your capo...i'll try it out .... i'm doing that sunday lunch show again this week if you and the missus are in the area.....

I'll bring it along, but I doubt it'll work for you. Mine is the steel-string model, and it's built for fingerboards that aren't flat. But you'll be able to see how it works and grasp what the advantages are.

Bob-Dubery

MoJo JoJoe wrote: @Bob : I'd like to hear why you think
The G7th might improve things - but I doubt it will solve Keira's problem completely.
Surely if the capo solves Keira's tuning problem, then that's the problem solved? Yes, they are available in SA.

You can tune with a G7th fitted, but there's some extra friction on the strings and if you remove the capo or relocate it then that friction will release and the string may slip a little and you'll be out of tune again. Or at least that's what I find playing a long-ish scale acoustic with medium guage strings. That's not a G7th thing, it's a general capo thing.

I think Keira might also want to move the capo quickly in the middle of a number - in which case the G7th is going to be cumbersome.

Keira-WitherKay

Mojo i will try a G7 .... and yes if it's the solution it will save me a ton of extra worries....so yeah will find a store with them and go put it to the test ...any idea who stocks em in jhb .. marshall music woodmead is my regular store ....

and Bob if i could get one capo to work as a nut....i would simply use a 2nd capo to do that middle of song key change trick thingy .... so i can work around it long as the capo is not too heavey as i don't wanna weigh the neck down..my guitar is prefered to be balanced ...yeah and no worries to bring the capo ...i forgot they won't be compatable... but great hope to see you on sunday ... phone and book if you coming ...never know how quickly it fills up....

yeah alan good idea with the neck refit .... yeah i like that idea and definitely cheaper than a whole new guitar hehehehh ....

peace and light
K

MoJo-JoJoe

Bob-Dubery

Keira WitherKay wrote: and Bob if i could get one capo to work as a nut....i would simply use a 2nd capo to do that middle of song key change trick thingy .... so i can work around it long as the capo is not too heavey as i don't wanna weigh the neck down

I suggest you try a Shubb then. Light, not too obtrusive, and adjustable so that you can set it up for optimum pressure in a specific position. They should have a model for a classical guitar.

g1

What is the headstock angle?
You might be able to get away with buying a second nut and filing the slots as close as you can to the fingerboard. If you get a good setup the first fret could become your zero fret. But as mentioned before it comes down the break angle over the nut. But might still work. Also if you buy a second nut you could put the original back on if it doesn't work out.

Bob-Dubery

Bob Dubery wrote: I suggest you try a Shubb then. Light, not too obtrusive, and adjustable so that you can set it up for optimum pressure in a specific position. They should have a model for a classical guitar.

Indeed they have several.

See http://www.shubb.com/store/capos/2.html

Including a special lightweight model.

Keira-WitherKay

hey guys ... i think the solution has been found....

and thanks for all the input, i did some talking to Bob about the capo issue at my gig today ... and then while we were chatting it came to me.... it made sense that an adjustable capo that allowed just the right tension would allow me to tune with it on if the capo was not too tight ....as mojo suggested with the G7 capo..... and i also did not want a "heavy" capo weighing down the neck and thowing out the balance of my guitar which is close to perfect ......since i play in a classical position with the guitar neck at quite an upward angle... so a top heavy neck would create huge problems....

thats when i recalled during my conversation today about it that the flamenco players i have seen using this technique of capo on 1st fret.... paco de lucia and vincento amigo, both use wrap around capo's not any fancy clamp type capo's just the basic R60 jim dunlop type... although paco seems to use a vintage flameco capo, but it is still a wrap around one...but vincento uses what to my eye's is identical to the jim dunlop with the plastic lever on the nylon material.....

so after the gig today and a long bath i dug out a classical jim dunlop i had in my gig bag and tried it out .... but keeping the tension just enough to give me the right pressure .... and there you have it .... success i think
i detuned the entire guitar a step and spent ages finding the right pressure.... but i tuned and it stayed stable and the intonation at the octave was perfect ..... i played for about an hour and the tuning only needed minor tweaks.... so i have minimal pressure and a lightweight capo ...almost negligable compared to my clamp type capo's .... that won't mess with the balance and the tuning seems to be holding....

yay guys ...all your brain storming has helped to find what i hope is the solution...since if this wrap around capo works it will mean no surgery on my guitar shifting the nut .... which also means if i damage my guitar i can just grab a replacement and slap the capo on it rather than have the instrument feel odd or have to be altered before i use it...and since i travel so much ... heheheh damage in transit is a real risk.... SKB case or not

i will report back in a week or so .... i have a busy week with a few rehearsals and 4 gigs this week, the 2 flamenco ones on thurs and fri will be the acid test...

keep your fingers crossed...and again this forum is a great asset.... thanks Alan/Bob/mojo and everyone else for the input

peace and light
Keira WitherKay

Gearhead

Small question: if the capo were to go easy on easy off, would it not make sense to take it off, retune and put it back on? This would allow you to use a slightly higher pressure than the absolute minimum so you don't have to be afraid of the sting tension going up when you move to a different climate. You would not be able to 'slap' the capo on another instrument if the tension setting is critical, because the neck is not going to have the same circumference.