[Poll] Country of manufacture - does it matter?

V8

I had a interesting conversation with a violinist this week, comparing violin and guitar - he regarded 100 y/o violin as 'young'!

Made me think Guitar/Bass is a relatively new instrument in historical terms (particularly electrified instruments), and in around 70 years we went from Rickenbacker's invention and Les Paul's Log to China pumping out playable instruments for almost no money.

I've been playing quite a few Chinese made instruments lately and my favourite is a chinese made Warwick. Plays like a dream, I'm very impressed - though I have reservations about how well it would hold up were it seriously gigged, electronics are a bit dodgy. But my MIJ strat is road ready, I'd be surprised if it ever let me down.

Is it fair to equate country of manufacture with quality? And, the benefit of quality is longevity on the road (E.g. Gigging regularly)?

(old forum) Poll Results: [Poll] Country of manufacture - does it matter?

Yes: 3
No: 2
Sometimes: 7

peterleroux

CNC machines don't really care what country they're operated in. I think increasingly we're seeing good instruments come from any country. I was happy with my Indonesian Cort Curbow, am very happy with my Chinese Squier CV Jazz and Tele, and I agree that those Warwick Rockbasses are a lot of fun to play.

That's not to say that every Chinese instrument is as good as every American instrument- far from it- but the time when East Asian instruments were built to the cheapest possible spec. are long gone.

studmissile

Interesting topic, I know I harp on about Japanese stuff, but I got a Chinese ibanez exotic wood acoustic that has better action than a shred guitar! So in all honesty, no.

Nitebob

My youngest has a saying when ANYTHING breaks: "Chinese cr*p"

I am in the tyre game and I can tell you I've seen Chinese tyres do 70 000km with no rotation and alignment on the front of a front wheel drive car. That is very good mileage. The Chinese is very customer driven. You can go over there and (provided you pay for the moulds) can have your very own brand of tyre made.

Same with guitars...

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-40-Cutaway-Acoustic-Guitars-Solid-Mahogany-Top-Mahogany-Body-guitarra-eletrica-With-LCD-Pickup/32791971276.html?spm=2114.01020208.3.324.luFeMh&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_1_10152_10065_10151_10068_5010015_10136_10137_10157_10060_10138_10155_10062_10156_437_10154_10056_10055_10054_10059_303_100031_10099_10103_10102_10096_10147_10052_10053_10107_10050_10142_10051_10174_5190015_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10110_519_10111_10112_10113_10114_10183_10182_10185_10078_10079_10073_10123_142,searchweb201603_9,ppcSwitch_2_ppcChannel&btsid=2e8c465f-7b58-4a15-9805-32ba97794d29&algo_expid=ad0dba6c-ecf5-4f62-950a-0df09c97d0cc-33&algo_pvid=ad0dba6c-ecf5-4f62-950a-0df09c97d0cc

Malkav

Country of origin matters, and it matters a lot ?

When a guitar company is going to do a run of guitars coming out of a factory in China and one coming out of a warehouse in America who do you think they will allocate the higher quality of wood to? You'll probably see 3 or 4 piece bodies coming out of the Chinese run but 2 piece bodies out of America, which will probably be much lighter too? and the reason is that the guitar market is still very stubborn about country, so why risk the good stuff on the lower market perception item?

Now I personally believe a skilled luthier can exist anywhere in the world and make a good guitar, but when you're a company paying out thousands of dollars to make sure a factory churns out a thousand good guitars you know that market perception matters.

modulator

Junk can be had from any country.

V8

Chad Adam Browne wrote: and the reason is that the guitar market is still very stubborn about country, so why risk the good stuff on the lower market perception item?

Sad but true.

You literally can't give a 2nd Cort away for much above parts value - which kinda accentuates the magical musical time we are in. A playable guitar and ability to record decent demo level tracks is soooooo cheap now - compared to pretty much anytime in music.

Nobody mentioned acoustic guitars yet, here I feel the gap still exists - though I think a good acoustic can be made in china (Wizard has a lovely guild nylon) and yahama churn out playable entry level guitars - but I've seen too many Corts (high end ones) with issues they really shouldn't have had for a guitar that was only a few years old.

IceCreamMan

Chad Adam Browne wrote: Country of origin matters, and it matters a lot ?

When a guitar company is going to do a run of guitars coming out of a factory in China and one coming out of a warehouse in America who do you think they will allocate the higher quality of wood to? You'll probably see 3 or 4 piece bodies coming out of the Chinese run but 2 piece bodies out of America, which will probably be much lighter too? and the reason is that the guitar market is still very stubborn about country, so why risk the good stuff on the lower market perception item?

Now I personally believe a skilled luthier can exist anywhere in the world and make a good guitar, but when you're a company paying out thousands of dollars to make sure a factory churns out a thousand good guitars you know that market perception matters.

that's it, quality control also has to be better in the country where a premium is charged . (although this has not always been the case)

Another factor worth considering and not related to the "goodness" of the instrument is the social aspects. Surely as consumers we should be vigilant not the support exploitive practices just for the sake of saving some coin. There must be a "social contract" in place when buying anything, surely. (yip, a dyed in the wool good ole party supporter just said that)

modulator

Meron, can you elaborate on the Cort acoustics problems? If not here, please pm me, before I get too deep into value for money Cort's...

V8

modulator wrote: Meron, can you elaborate on the Cort acoustics problems? If not here, please pm me, before I get too deep into value for money Cort's...

I shouldn't single out Cort, but it's just something I've noticed on a handful of Cort's acoustics's that I've seen 2nd hand. About 1/3 have had some kinda loose bracing - either there's a rattle or the bridge lifts. I'm guessing the glue fails. Perhaps this was just my luck or only earlier models, or a certain factory.

If it were only the budget ones, if wouldn't be worth mentioning, but I've seen it one the higher end ones too. I'd have a goood look before putting down serious $ on a acoustic Cort.

I have a lot more confidence in the longevity of yahama's and takamine's - they just keep on truckin'.

studmissile

So on the way back from SAGE I popped into a guitar shop (remain nameless) hanging on the wall was 4 Fender Telecasters;
50s Roadworn (MIM), Sonic Blue Baja (MIM), American Standard (USA) an 60's Squier Classic Vibe (China). I can't tell you how poor the set up, feel and finish was on the first 3, it was frightening. Hands down in a blind fold test I would of chosen the Classic Vibe on feeling alone. I'm still scratching and shaking my head?

The Baja looked the best though.

peterleroux

studmissile wrote: So on the way back from SAGE I popped into a guitar shop (remain nameless) hanging on the wall was 4 Fender Telecasters;
50s Roadworn (MIM), Sonic Blue Baja (MIM), American Standard (USA) an 60's Squier Classic Vibe (China). I can't tell you how poor the set up, feel and finish was on the first 3, it was frightening. Hands down in a blind fold test I would of chosen the Classic Vibe on feeling alone. I'm still scratching and shaking my head?

The Baja looked the best though.

The Tele is a great example because it was designed to be mass produced by semi-skilled labour. It's easy to see how you could make a good Tele under widely varying circumstances. This blindfold test is entertaining- A Les Paul, on the other hand, is finely crafted and needs lots of compromises to make cheaply, so I don't expect to see good ones out of low end factories ( even Gibson seem to have quality control issues from time to time...)

This thing of having expensive instruments set up poorly mystifies me though. Surely it's worth the two hour setup to be able to sell the guitar faster? I must agree that when I played a MIM Jazz and the CV/artist sig Squier Jazz side by side, I left the shop with the CV.

studmissile

peterleroux wrote: This thing of having expensive instruments set up poorly mystifies me though.

The million dollar question!

V8

peterleroux wrote: This thing of having expensive instruments set up poorly mystifies me though. Surely it's worth the two hour setup to be able to sell the guitar faster?

I was the same, until I saw the economics of it. New strings + 1hr setup = R250-R500. (Depends on guitar & type of strings), which kills the bottom line for the retailers. I don't know of a shop that prep's ALL it's instruments. So I guess they just take the chances on the factory setup being good & if it isn't, the customer can use that as a bargaining tool. Sucks for the beginners who don't know better :-[

Last I was at bothners, 2 factory setups were great, one okay and one was terrible - I know that you can get the guys at Claremont branch to dial in a guitar you plan on buying. The junkies do take pride in having (non consignment) items well setup - they will also dial in a guitar the way you want. I don't think I could expect more for a new or used retailer?

Overall, it does make SUCH a difference to the buyer - though I'm getting better at feeling the 'magic' of an instrument that may be masked by a poor setup/old strings - so I don't mind, I prefer to find a dog that can become a diamond.

PbZepplin

I think if you are talking about classical guitars, then country of manufacture definitely does matter. The best classical guitars are made in Spain, followed by Brazil. Japan has made some good classical guitars that are fine for everyday practice; however, most classical guitarists rely on Spanish- or Brazil-manufactured classical guitars for performances. I think for classical guitars, the quality of the acoustics of a guitar are of primary importance, and this depends heavily on the quality of woods used and the skill of the luthier. For steel string or electric guitar, the acoustics of the guitar and quality of the wood used are less important, which is why countries such as China have made inroads.

chilliepot

Times change. In the old days. I mean a long time ago we used to talk about Jap crap.
We don't say that any more!

Wizard

A good guitar is a good guitar - it's just wood, strings & some electric bits.
To quote Andre Meyer "the maple tree doesn't know what brand they're going to paint on the headstock"

Past track record can suggest the future - if all past PRS guitars are high quality; chances are that the next one will be too.
All things being equal.

The key bit is this "all things being equal" bit.

Variability within the pool may be big.
China is moer big (1.4bn people). And developing fast.
So your last Chinese guitar was rubbish. You're going to conclude they ALL are?

Quality changes over time too.
Brands can tell nostalgic lies - the Gibson story.

Quality variability can also be your friend.
The same variation that allows an occassional disaster also allows the occasional miracle

There's an argument that some '59 instruments are regarded so highly because the quality variation was high; and only the best are still around. Natural selection.
A quality controlled mediocre instrument today will still be a mediocre instrument in 50 years.

My best guitar is a "made in China" Guild nylon.
But I took the trouble to carefully hand pick it.
Went to Bothners in a GAS frenzy wanting to get my dream nylon with a Spanish sounding name.

Got really confused when this China Guild at a fraction of the Spanish price turned out to be the one I liked the most.
After getting trusted musicians to endorse my hunch I bought it.

Resale value is however heavily driven by these indicators.
Which is why it's so hard for exceptional custom luthiers to break into the market.
And why I'll probably just hang onto my China Guild

Malkav

PbZepplin wrote: I think if you are talking about classical guitars, then country of manufacture definitely does matter. The best classical guitars are made in Spain, followed by Brazil. Japan has made some good classical guitars that are fine for everyday practice; however, most classical guitarists rely on Spanish- or Brazil-manufactured classical guitars for performances. I think for classical guitars, the quality of the acoustics of a guitar are of primary importance, and this depends heavily on the quality of woods used and the skill of the luthier. For steel string or electric guitar, the acoustics of the guitar and quality of the wood used are less important, which is why countries such as China have made inroads.

This is incorrect, there is nothing more complex about making a nylon string than there is about making a steel string, if anything it's easier cause there's no truss rod or radius on the fretboard to consider and the bracing is just bracing, it has a purpose and is arranged in such a way as to fulfill that purpose, there's no voodoo magic going on, or at least nothing that prohibits affordable nylon strings from being acceptable instruments or prevents mass manufacture of a reasonable quality standard.

I doubt that literally all top classical guitar players only play Spanish or Brazilian guitars, more that there's a propensity for it because that's what's always been used and therefore they've attained that mystical reputation. If anything the fact that they've stuck with that mindset or that the mindset is the dominant view in that genre just speaks to a disproportionate importance on tradition and an unwillingness to move with the times, even more so than the average electric player ?

V8

Chad Adam Browne wrote:
PbZepplin wrote: I think if you are talking about classical guitars, then country of manufacture definitely does matter...If anything the fact that they've stuck with that mindset or that the mindset is the dominant view in that genre just speaks to a disproportionate importance on tradition and an unwillingness to move with the times, even more so than the average electric player ?

Precisely the reason I avoided mentioning acoustic guitars in general (and nylon's in particular). IMHO, there's a magical skill to making acoustic guitars that the production line hasn't quite gotten right. Perhaps something that the inherent variance of a natural product like wood needs a highly skilled artisan to create/ensure the consistency between acoustic builds. Merely my opinion...whether it's chinese manufactured or elsewhere, the less a skilled artisan is involved in the process, the less likely it's going to have that 'magic'.

Having played Wizard's chinese Guild - I'm a fan, it's a surprisingly good guitar. I make a point of playing it when I go visit. A really good example of the breed or guild are just making good guitars in china - I have no idea.

evolucian

I dunno so much. When u find a brilliant sounding git in a cheap range, its gold... to you. And damn anyone who finds fault with it before even hearing it. The absolute perfectly balanced nylon I played was Japanese... I only ever found a 2nd hand price for them and that was around US3500. My strat is jap and I'm happy with it 17 years later. Will only think of laying it down after I get a fouche one day but then again, it won't be laying down long.

When I worked at matt's a long time ago, there was a Chinese strat that sounded better than all the US strats surrounding it... Including that obesely priced rosewood custom shop tele at the time. It just sounded so amazing and yet it was a standard assembly Chinese piece of poo aimed at beginners. lucky beginner that was who eventually bought it

So does it matter? Nope. Only snobby dobbies will think it does who buy for name and not sound. Ah well