What exactly is "handbuilt"?

modulator

Following a recent e-mail link to a Calssical Guitar site in SA to look at the handbuilt guitars on offer for "bargain" prices, I shake my head. The intro model is way above my pay grade, and does not even sport a truss rod if I read the specs correctly. Also plywood back and sides. Sure. So I look at the top concert grade model, costing as much as several guitars would, to see it is advertised as a solid top and back and sides guitar, but again, I do not read anything about a simple truss rod. Examining the specs shows that the "solid" top is a laminate with some synthetic in the middle, and the sides seem to have a laminated structure as well, even if the outsides of that is an expensive wood.

Now, where does this fit into the "solid top" claim? Plywood is plywood, I do not care what sort of lamination you use, it is plywood. Reinforced with carbon? Still ply. So, here we have a three-ply guitar with not too nice looking neck, apparently no truss rod, for, well, more than my monthly income. Much more. I have not been into a real music shop recently, but I did look into a Cash Crusaders last week, they have plywood nylon string guitars for a bargain price. Which I bet is also "handmade", in China? (Having handled an old battered Cash Crusaders classical guitar recently, I can report that in my opinion it is OK for a raw beginner to start on. Well, that one was, even though fitted with (AAARGH!!!) steel strings.)

The question being, how much money would one be willing to pay for a guitar built by humans, signed off by a good luthier as his work, advertised as a "solid" construction, even though it clearly is laminated (come on, Ply), as opposed to a human built "assembly line" guitar of similar design and construction form a "no name brand" factory? If one can advertise the availability of the expensive guitar online, even if you may have a three month waiting period, surely, it is not a limited edition, and can be seen as a production model, of which many, many are made each year. Where do you draw the line between "handbuilt" (to a certain degree, they all are) and "mass produced"?

Yes, yes, I do realize that the better guitar will have better tone, sound, volume, projection, feel, and so on. Fortunately, players have preferences, and some even have money to indulge in those preferences. Would I enjoy an expensive classical guitar? Of course. But do not try to impress me with misleading advertising.

V8

Generally speaking, classical guitars (nylon strings) do not have truss rods. There isn't a need as there strings do not have enough tension in them to warp a neck. I've seen plenty of classical guitars strung up with steel string acoustic strings, everytime something bad has happened. The bridge pulled, guitar bellied or neck warped.

I'm in process of rescuing one that DOES have a truss rod (and a nifty little sticker telling you the neck is "steel reinforced"). This led someone to put steel strings on it, which tore up the internal bracing and caused a immense bellying issue.

Laminates (aka plywood). I generally understand that a laminate is fairly static. That is, if it sounds good today, it'll sound that way in twenty years. Laminates typically don't age or 'open up'. Solid tops however, do age - and require some care (humidity control). If they sound good today, they may sound great in a decade or two.

I'm okay with laminates, they generally are hardier guitars and I'm not the the kinda guy to baby my instruments in their cases all the time. But I'm not a tone junkie either - YMMV

Some of the cash crusader specials are playable. I've tried a bunch of cheep classicals and none compare to the lowliest yamaha C40. Which 2nd hand is around the same money. Just having tuners that work consistently is tricky to find in the cheepies.

But I have been shopping for a classical in Cape Town. Yamaha, Takamine are the default two to choose from in most stores. You might get lucky and find a Alvarez (I like) or a entry level Alahambra or Ramirez. But that is generally it.

I went shopping with serious intent 3 yrs ago - budget R8000. I figured that would find me a upgrade from my Alahambra 3C. Played about 10 guitars in A/B comparisons - came back empty handed. Nothing came close to the Alahambra. The closest was a Alvarez, good value - at the time. But lacked a little something that the Alahambra had.

I havn't tried any of the guitars that are advertised (I'd like to sometime). I just had a look at pricing - I don't think it's unreasonable - it's setup, bone nut & saddle, has a case and good strings - that's about R1500 value and stuff I would do for a guitar that I intended on keeping.

To put it into perspective - My old flamenco teacher has a few nice guitars...the cheapest of which is around R80000...Acoustic instruments get silly expensive once you move into the upper echelons of truly hand-made instruments.

A "Hand made" acoustic to me is : The top has been tuned (thickness sanded) to it's optimum resonance. The same level of detail follows through the guitar, where the bracing, aback and sides show the same level of care and detail. This is a specialist task that very few humans can do consistently - let alone a machine.

buttle

Yeh, spot on! Classical guitars DO NOT have a neck brace.

You can buy acoustic steel strings specially made for classical guitars (http://www.thomastik-infeld.com/family-detail/Classic%20S%20rope%20core) and they feel and sound absolutely incredible! I love them.

I have also had a look at the Guitar SA site and I'm definitely NOT convinced about 'hand-made' either. Plywood and veneers all over the place. One glance at the Aiersi website and all you see are CNC machines... ok, fine, anything from China is going to cheaper for a reason... they can crank them out... and they use automated machines to do so, but the quality is really quite, if not VERY good nowadays.

R8k for the Traditional... hmmm you can probably get a better quality instrument with a bit of shopping around. That is still a lot of cash.

The Concert Grade instrument for R28k... I would not touch it for one simple reason... that ridiculous head stock. That thin piece of free floating wood is just waiting for its first bump or spill... and that will be that.

It probably does sound very nice and plays very easily and you can get a 'genuinely hand made' Yulong Guo 'Concert' Guitar with Cedar or Spruce Top for R61k... So I will assume that Aiersi Yulong Guo is factory made under licence. He does make his own guitars and I doubt very much that he works in the Aersi factory.

When you are going to spend this much money... just take the time to do the homework... and then decide.

I do think that the Guitar SA Aersi guitars are probably all very good and if you like they way they feel and play... then go for it. There is no reason why a carefully made factory guitar cannot be very good. And as I mentioned already, China has great quality items nowadays.

Guitarstar

Some luthiers build classical guitars with a carbon reinforced neck, but truss rods as we know them in steel string acoustics and electrics are not used in classical guitars. As other forum members have already pointed out, they are generally not necessary in classical guitars. Humidity and exposure to extreme temperatures can affect the neck and body, but as long as the instrument is kept properly and with humidity in the 35-55 range (short spells outside this aren't a problem), it should be ok.

I have a genuinely hand built classical guitar right next to me now. Everything on it aside from the tuners and the strings was either built or shaped by hand, by one man. Luthiers who do this can't build many guitars per year due to the very careful and time consuming work involved - and their love of what they do, coupled with a desire to produce the best guitar they can build.

I can't really speak about SA, as I only know two luthiers who build classical guitars in SA. But from my UK experience and some knowledge of US/European/Asian luthiers (and using a random ZAR/GBP exchange rate of 16), hand built luthier guitars start at around R40,000 and this normally includes a decent case (i.e. Hiscox or thereabouts). The broad seam of good, trusted and known classical luthiers in the UK would price a new instrument at around R60,000 - R70,000. The next level up, those with longer waiting lists and customers amongst the best concert guitarists, tend to range from around R80,000 - R130,000. Above that, you are into the super league, or collectable instruments; prices can quickly go up to R320,000 or more.

As to what you get for the money, aside from the beauty of the best hand chosen tonewoods and details, french polishing, superior tuners, optimised intonation, great volume and projection, singing trebles and sonorous basses, it is all utterly subjective. The important added ingredient of course is a player with the ability to coax beautiful sounds out of the instrument.

Put it this way, I have been asked why hand built guitar prices compare favourably to equivalent bowed instrument prices.....so maybe over time more people will realise this and prices will increase. I know that there has been a huge upsurge in price, quality and availability of hand built steel string guitars over the last 20 years; you only have to look at what SA's own Casimi are doing in Cape Town and the eye watering prices to match (around R250,000 equivalent UK price last time I checked).

modulator

No truss rod required? OK, I have a newer-fangled acoustic-electric, two way truss rod. Requires some tension with the strings I use: Thomastic-Einfeld Classics. Not cheap, amazing strings, a bit weak on bass on my plonker, but bright sound. Does amazing bends.

No,they are NOT steel strings for classical guitars, modern fibres and coated. I have never had anything else on this guitar, I cannot comment on how much better or worse they are compared to traditional nylons. On a good guitar they should be amazing.

Anyone have some big pieces of bone for nuts and saddles? Or should I just make some carbon fibre/epoxy items? Bone: not a solid material, full of microscopic holes and such... Wood: same deal. If I ever get to build a guitar, it will be laminated, wood and carbon fibre, thin but strong?

V8

modulator wrote: Anyone have some big pieces of bone for nuts and saddles? Or should I just make some carbon fibre/epoxy items? Bone: not a solid material, full of microscopic holes and such... Wood: same deal. If I ever get to build a guitar, it will be laminated, wood and carbon fibre, thin but strong?

I did help a fellow boil up a bag of bones for use in art projects last year, some of that did make it into saddles & nuts - but it was a ^&*%$*&^ &*^% to work with. Stinky and brittle - ewww. Farrrr easier to pop into a guitar store & grab a grahptech nubone preshaped nut/saddle instead. And at around R60/ea it's pretty reasonable.

I'm all for composites in instruments! As far as I have read, it's still just that much cheaper to continue with wood than go for composites (for production line instruments). Only time I've owned something close to a composite was a Cort Curbow, luthite body w/ebanol fretboard. Not sure if the luthite made any difference to me (It certainly wasn't light)....but, that ebanol fretboard - reallllyyy liked the feel of it.

These fellows have been carbon fibre acoustics for years : https://www.blackbirdguitar.com/. I liked their take on a travel guitar!

This thread has reminded me of a Diy thread we had going last year - thanks, I needed to bump that! If it is of any interest here's a Casimi build thread http://www.guitarforum.co.za/setup-mods-and-repair/casimi-acoustic-guitar-building-course/ & http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=351112&highlight=afican+blackwood