Dear Santa, Can you help me get that clean tone?

Hasie

Hey Members,

So earlier this year I bought my first tube amp - a BlackStar HT-5R combo. Well, it sounded good at the time and I was all about playing metal and some more metal. And it is "voiced for metal".

Then somewhere along the line, I traded my guitar which had active pups, for one that have passives and things sounded better to my ears - not so flat and linear. I also started playing more difficult pieces of music (during guitar lessons) and decided to play them on the clean channel with my electric guitar and not just on my acoustic.
- I used to do all my lesson stuff on the acoustic and metal on my electric for some dumb reason - call it newbness.

Then I started liking the clean tone and have sort have become obsessed with getting the chimey, bell-like sound, prefect note definition and what not - that sound that gives you goosebumps.

So instead of dishing up another small crapload of ZAR for another combo amp, I am considering doing some upgrades on the HT-5R.

It currently has:
1 x ECC83 Preamp valve. What I've read is that it Sovtek.
1 x 12BH7A Power valve. Not sure about the brand.
Blackbird 50 12" speaker

So what I am considering doing:
- Speaker: Celestion Gold 12" or Celestion Blue 12" or Celestion Vintage 30 12"
- Preamp Tube: Mullard ECC83 or Tung Sol 12AX7

Which speaker would you recommend of those listed or any other you think is better than what it currently has?
Will the tube change make a significant difference in that clean tone I am looking for?

Gearhead

Step 1: what electric do you play? Step 2: what pickups?
Please do not worry about upgrading valves until you have a guitar that sounds chimey on someone else's very nice amp. The bells only come from inside the pups, there is no way a valve can add note definition. It can add overtones, yes, but we call that distortion and it's not what you are asking for.

Keira-WitherKay

clean tone is very tricky in many ways ........

it depends on what type of clean tone you want? i know the Blackstar amps a few of my students use them...and they are awesome ... and i have got some great clean tones when messing around with em ...just stock

something to bear in mind is that many of the sparkly clean tones are created by using a "fenderish" style guitar into a fenderish style amp ...

so if you trying to get sparkly clean with a les paul or ESP it may not be as great as a strat or tele ...coil taps work ...so so BUT a true single coil jangles just so much more than most any coil tapped humbucker

and another point is clean tone is created by a lot of headroom...so keep the gain very low and boost the master ....

and most clean players even back off on the guitars volume knob a bit (about 10 - 25%) when playing into tube amps...this also helps give you a boost when you want to fatten your sound or solo just roll up the volume then roll back down after ...trick is to find the sweet spot different pickups and pots react differently

also a compressor pedal can make clean notes pop ...especially when we talk country clean /dire straits

and many clean sounds we perceive as clean actually have some breakup on it ..thats why we prefer tube amps for clean than solid state which is crystal clean

before you spend money on a mod to your amp maybe just 1st try a Fender strat or tele ...

i own an Engl thunder 50 tube amp which is also kinda seen as a metal/shred amp yet i get the warmest,sweetest cleans from it with my tele

also maybe before you mod anything ask someone who plays clean a lot to use your amp and try get the same or similar tone from it that they used to.... often even a players feel/technique can make a huge difference

hope that helps some ....let us know how you proceed

ezietsman

What Gearhead says, forget the valve upgrade, it'll make almost no difference. The speaker will make a huge difference, however, the HT5 being only a 5 watt amp will not really have enough oomph to break in any new speaker properly, so you kinda lose out there too.

My HT5 is kinda warm sounding on the clean channel and kinda fizzy on the drive channel, I think this is just the nature of them. Try running the Mids lower and the treble and bass higher and put the ISF toward the US side. Then tilt the amp so the speaker points to your head. This will allow you to hear the sparkle, its there.

If you back down on the volume, like Keira says, you may lose some treble, if your guitar is wired modern style. Humbuckers tend to be warmer sounding too, unless they're quite low output.

Good luck.

Hasie

The guitar: Ibanez RG1550FM
Pickups:
- Neck: Seymour Duncan APH1B (Humbucker) Nice and warm tone. But mids not pronounced enough for my taste.
- Middle: Seymour Duncan Single Coil: 3.3kOhm. Sparkly, mids a bit low and not warm enough.
- Bridge: Seymour Duncan Humbucker: 17.8kOhm, drives the tubes hard when on the high gain channel. Sounds crap on the clean channel.

I play with the volume varying between 6 and 8. Get a short, popping twangy kind of sound on the clean channel(The note dies quickly) when opened to 10, which I do not like.

Keira WitherKay wrote: something to bear in mind is that many of the sparkly clean tones are created by using a "fenderish" style guitar into a fenderish style amp ...

That might be the tone/sound I am looking for, but I do not want to do a complete gear replacement.

I play on the clean channel, which only has a volume knob and tone knob.

It is just one of those weird things where I can't seem to get that exact clean sound I want.

Thanks ez. I will tilt the amp and try. The clean channel only has a tone knob and the ISF only works on the high gain channel on mine. Maybe I should fiddle some more. I have thought of getting a Vox AC15 or Laney Cub R just for the bit more clean headroom and volume.

Hasie

Keira WitherKay wrote: clean tone is very tricky in many ways ........

also maybe before you mod anything ask someone who plays clean a lot to use your amp and try get the same or similar tone from it that they used to.... often even a players feel/technique can make a huge difference

Anyone here in the Pretoria area that plays clean a lot, which can help out on this? It will involve some free beer. Well, free for you anyway. ?

morph

Why don't you take your guitar with you and pop into your nearest dealer, there you can try out the whole variation.

V8

Hasie wrote:
Keira WitherKay wrote: clean tone is very tricky in many ways ........

also maybe before you mod anything ask someone who plays clean a lot to use your amp and try get the same or similar tone from it that they used to.... often even a players feel/technique can make a huge difference
Anyone here in the Pretoria area that plays clean a lot, which can help out on this? It will involve some free beer. Well, free for you anyway. ?

If you were in Cpt, I'd take you up on it. Perhaps better that you arn't - You'd lust after my strat ?

Keira WitherKay wrote: before you spend money on a mod to your amp maybe just 1st try a Fender strat or tele ...

^^^ +1. To everything Keira said! And she is in PTA...not sure if she be a beer aficionado though. Perhaps go see her play sometime, she'll blow your mind.

There's something about a (decent) single coil that has clean tone clarity (some mention "note definition"). I went back to my stock singles in my strat after trying a variety of noiseless high gain ones.

Was having a discussion recently with lapdawg where he felt that lower output (4-6k-ish) pickups (humbuckers) had clarity that was lost when the output went up. His point was - if the pup is lower output, you can add volume & gain (amp/pedals), but you can't take it away if the pup is high output. Something I kinda stumbled upon trying out a few different configs last year. But he had a R6k set of TV Jones in his latest build...Super sweet is a understatement.

My test for a pickup's clean tone (don't laugh) is plugging into a clean channel on a Roland cube. And A/B against a Squire strat/tele. Even the cheap ones have a tone that you can compare what you have against.

Hardly a boutique reference tone, and I do get ridiculed for asking to plug into a cube whenever I'm trying out guitars/configs. But I'm familiar with the cubes & squires - it's a baseline I can to compare to. But then again I'm no tone junkie - I reckon my strat into a 10W Ibanez troubador sounds pretty good ?

Not sure a Laney 12R will have the headroom you seek...Great amp, especially the head + cab - but not my 1st choice for a clean tone.

Hasie

Greg Perkins wrote: Why don't you take your guitar with you and pop into your nearest dealer, there you can try out the whole variation.

Maybe I should do that. And take my amp and try different guitars on my amp and my guitar on different amps.

Norman86

V8 wrote: Was having a discussion recently with lapdawg where he felt that lower output (4-6k-ish) pickups

lower output pickups are the key.

EDIT:

Hasie wrote: Then I started liking the clean tone and have sort have become obsessed with getting the chimey, bell-like sound, prefect note definition and what not - that sound that gives you goosebumps.

You will not get that from high output pickups, especially not high output humbuckers.

Hasie

Norman86 wrote:
V8 wrote: Was having a discussion recently with lapdawg where he felt that lower output (4-6k-ish) pickups
lower output pickups are the key.

This might be key. The thing is, I love my RG very much, and not for sentimental reasons. It is the correct weight, it is properly balanced, the neck/action/setup is just so perfect. I would not want to sell it in order to get a Fender, except if said Fender is just as exceptional.
The other option may be to switch pups, but then again. I can't listen to them before swopping them out.

Norman86

why not get a squier affinity series or classic vibes strat? good components in terms of the body and neck wood, the pickups are low output.

i have a set of 1954 Fender commemorative pups i cannot wait to get into one of my guitars, they're different enough from my CS54's in Zenith, but also from the pups in the Classic 50's.. but both sets sound so good.. I think i need to get a beater squier to put them in.. or at least get the classic 50's pups into and get the 1954's into the fender.. or swap them with the CS54's.. aargh.. too many options..

but, low ouput pickups are key for the jangly sparkly sound.
Gretsch and TV jones filtertrons are nicely low, which is key to their sound.

EDIT:
I have some blacktop gretsch filtertrons which i will be putting in my cort, swapping the SD 59/jb out for. i think they measure about 4.5k on each pup.

V8

Hasie wrote: I would not want to sell it in order to get a Fender, except if said Fender is just as exceptional.

Face it...You need another guitar. ?

One for gain and one for cleans.

One for Mondays. Another for Fridays. And three more, just to be sure...

And a couple as projects...and a few basses, because you need to slum it every now and again.

Oppsss...hang on, I'm projecting again! ?

Norman86

V8 wrote:
Hasie wrote: I would not want to sell it in order to get a Fender, except if said Fender is just as exceptional.
Face it...You need another guitar. ?

One for gain and one for cleans.

One for Mondays. Another for Fridays. And three more, just to be sure...

And a couple as projects...and a few basses, because you need to slum it every now and again.

Oppsss...hang on, I'm projecting again! ?

So much that in bold...

Norman86

http://www.takealot.com/squier-by-fender-bullet-stratocaster-sunburst/PLID36962210 - only R1500.. for a beater... not bad..

check Revolution on fb for deals. or SA music store. sams has the most nazi admin you will find. but they have more members selling stuff.

Hasie

Hehe. You guys...

I do have a PRS Tremonti SE for high gain stuff and because I like a lightweight LP. And because it's pretty.

Maybe I should sell or trade the Ibanez.

Also on takealot:
http://www.takealot.com/fender-standard-stratocaster-electric-guitar-black/PLID36962768

V8

Hasie wrote: Hehe. You guys...

Maybe I should sell or trade the Ibanez.

Noooooooooooooooooo, you'll regret it if it's that comfy. I still miss my 1st 'proper' guitar (yamaha pacifica). I'd have it back in a instant...worse still - I get to visit it every now and again at my mates house.

Hasie wrote: Also on takealot:
http://www.takealot.com/fender-standard-stratocaster-electric-guitar-black/PLID36962768

So cheap. R7299 for a MIM - About the price a mint condition one is 2nd hand, I just dunno how takealot does it. Only thing I dislike about the Std MIM's are the ceramic pickups I've seen in many of them - sound a touch brittle to me, but lots of peeps like 'em.

I'd say a Classic Vibe around 3.5k (2nd hand) would be a great deal. Fine pup's in the classic vibe range (apparently toneriders).

Or a cheap squire as a intro - Out of 30+ squires I've played, 3 have been surprisingly playable - choose carefully! Takealot's Cpt warehouse is around the corner from me, I've thought about buying one on special (R1299) and returning it until I found the sweet one in the batch =D

Hasie

V8 wrote:
Hasie wrote: Hehe. You guys...

Maybe I should sell or trade the Ibanez.
Noooooooooooooooooo, you'll regret it if it's that comfy. I still miss my 1st 'proper' guitar (yamaha pacifica). I'd have it back in a instant...worse still - I get to visit it every now and again at my mates house.

Hasie wrote: Also on takealot:
http://www.takealot.com/fender-standard-stratocaster-electric-guitar-black/PLID36962768
So cheap. R7299 for a MIM - About the price a mint condition one is 2nd hand, I just dunno how takealot does it. Only thing I dislike about the Std MIM's are the ceramic pickups I've seen in many of them - sound a touch brittle to me, but lots of peeps like 'em.

I'd say a Classic Vibe around 3.5k (2nd hand) would be a great deal. Fine pup's in the classic vibe range (apparently toneriders).

Or a cheap squire as a intro - Out of 30+ squires I've played, 3 have been surprisingly playable - choose carefully! Takealot's Cpt warehouse is around the corner from me, I've thought about buying one on special (R1299) and returning it until I found the sweet one in the batch =D

Cool. Thanks for the info. I don't know anything about Fenders and info like this is helpful. :goodtimes:
I am afraid that my MIJ Ibanez has ruined me forever - that is how nice it is to play.

I will not order that MIM strat from Takealot, just because I havent played it. I once made the mistake of buying a guitar on special order, which I have never played. I am going to my favourite music shop tomorrow and taking my amp with. They have a few MIM's, a few MIA's and a couple of squiers. I probably won't buy, but I want to test them all, feel the neck and action, fiddle with knobs and try and find that clean tone. I used to be all about hoe the guitar looks, hence the love for LP's and eye gougers, but currently I don't care if looks like a dubbin polished turd, if it plays easily and comfortably and sounds sweet, I'll have it.

Norman86

V8 wrote: So cheap. R7299 for a MIM - About the price a mint condition one is 2nd hand, I just dunno how takealot does it.

Because people are overselling their second hand MIM's that they bought for a lot cheaper wanting to make a profit. Takealot's price is in (approximate) line with the US street price. (edit: before the f-ing Rand freefall after some idiots decision)

And i agree, if the Ibby is so comfortable, rather get another guitar then trade or sell it off.

V8

Hasie wrote: I am afraid that my MIJ Ibanez has ruined me forever - that is how nice it is to play.

90% of the time, I don't much like Ibby's (except for the soundgear basses)...but I had a go on a hard tail'ed RG721fm prestige (indo) the other day. It was lovely!

Right now, I'd look around for a 80's-95 MIJ Strat. The Fuji-gen era strat has usually has a lovely thin neck and respectable build quality. (Full disclosure : I'm biased, I have a MIJ) I see them @ 6-8k on SA Music store. And they will slowly appreciate, now that MIJ Fender mass production has pretty much ceased.

But try as many as you can, there's every flavour - standards, deluxes, 57/62 re-issues, modern players, classic vibe(s), etc... And do check out a tele or two, there's a undeniable difference between a strat and tele tone - I like both, which just sounds like a lame excuse to get another guitar :-[

And a shout out for the value king in the tele clone market...the stock standard SX Telecaster (not thinline/hollow body, they are a bit pricey and just look different). Way better option than the squire bullet or squire affinity offerings.

I'd be remiss not to mention Tokai - the MIC tele (around 6k-ish) is also a great guitar