So many scales, so little....understanding...

wern101 · 2015-12-02T08:54:31+00:00

not sure if this is the correct thread, but here goes... Ok so I have to admit I did not go through the rest of the posts on this forum to see if anything h...

So many scales, so little....understanding...

ezietsman

The truth is that you can play basically anything you want to, as long as it sounds good to someone. You can follow the western classical music theory (like what you hear on the radio etc) and match scales to keys, so you'll mostly use notes from a single scale during your lead.

As for a formula, simply put, look at all the chords that you are playing over and the notes in those chords, those are the ones you can safely use and they'll always sounds good. Some others will also sound good. This is where the scales come in.

Using the key-scale at first is probably the easiest, most of us actually would have learned the blues scale first, its the minor pentatonic scale with an added note (the flat 5th note). So basically, if the song is in the key of A (major) you can use the A major scale's notes as you please. They'll work fine. If the song is in A minor, then you use the A minor notes. I guess this is where most of us start (and I'm still stuck there haha).

wern101

ez wrote:
So basically, if the song is in the key of A (major) you can use the A major scale's notes as you please. They'll work fine. If the song is in A minor, then you use the A minor notes.

Thanks EZ.

So, this is then the Major scale that will be played? And if the song is in the key of G, then you play the Major scale (same as with key of A) but starting with the G note on the top string? This is what i think i understand...
Thus - the major scale's shape/fingering never changes, it only moves up and down the fretboard, depending on the key of the song?

Thanks.

ezietsman

wern101 wrote:
ez wrote:
So basically, if the song is in the key of A (major) you can use the A major scale's notes as you please. They'll work fine. If the song is in A minor, then you use the A minor notes.
Thanks EZ.

So, this is then the Major scale that will be played? And if the song is in the key of G, then you play the Major scale (same as with key of A) but starting with the G note on the top string? This is what i think i understand...
Thus - the major scale's shape/fingering never changes, it only moves up and down the fretboard, depending on the key of the song?

Thanks.

That is correct. One more trick, if the song is in, say G major, like Knockin' on Heaven's Door, you'll see that the solo looks like it is being played in the key of E, but those notes are E minor scale notes. This is called the relative minor of the key, so if you're in the key of G major, it's relative minor LOOKS LIKE the E major scale (it is actually the Aeolian mode). To find it for a given key, start at the root note, G, and go down 3 half steps, you'll see for G it is E. I think this is correct, it certainly works for the pentatonics ?

studmissile

What a nightmare! ..........this book helped me when nothing else could!

http://www.amazon.com/Fretboard-Theory-Including-Progressions-Application-ebook/product-reviews/B004ASNACS/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#R2GW2Q9J05BN5F

otherwise like TokyoPOP said, improvising/jamming over backing tracks try and build up an ear!

funkadelic

I am in the process of learning "outside playing" (jazz fusion), and the key lessons I have learned are:
1. In order to play "outside" you have to master playing "inside", i.e., know your fingerboard inside out as well as your major and minor scales as well as the modes (of the major and minor scales) as all else is pretty much derived from there;
2. Know the function of a note within the context of the key centre or mode. For example a E note in the key of G major serves a different purpose vs say a E note in the key of E minor. Same notes but different tonal function.

That way instead of learning hundreds of scales you can milk the tonality of a few selected notes...probably sounds simpler than it really is...

wern101

Hey guys. thanks so much for all the help. i will have to make a study of all of this in December. not going on holiday so will have lots of time to play.
I shall provide an udpate on my progress in the new year... ?

I am also busy with finger exercises, specifically aimed at improving my speed, precision, dexterity....and that dreaded pinky...

Thanks again!! really appreciated.

Keira-WitherKay

often all thats required to get your "theory" together is a good tutor

you tube and online lessons can offer a lot and some are brilliant but often they are short (as in length) and can't cover the basics so you are expected to have a solid understanding of basic theory concepts to understand whats being explained

but Theory is NOT hard it just takes patience and the trick i find is you need to start at the beginning ...and work through it in a logical fashion, music and math is very much the same in this respect... if you miss a step it can make what you trying to learn seem way more complicated than it already is .

funkadelic

+1 to to what Keira WitherKay said...

I struggled for a long time with the translation of theory to a practical level. Got myself a professional session musician recently to overcome the hurdle...the good thing about a tutor is that the lessons are customised...much more flexible than the Youtube etc offerings...which makes progress 10 times faster..in my case at least

Shibbibilybob

+1 on the good teacher.
I spent around 9 years mucking about, thinking theory was tough, not really getting it, and ultimately not really understanding what I was doing.
I had a few guitar teachers when i was a teenager, but not since.

3 years ago I started lessons with a superb guitar teacher in cape town and his explanations and teachings made it all make sense...
we started with the fingerboard. He asked how well I knew it, and then kinda teased me a little for having "played" guitar for 9 years without knowing my fretboard very well.
I still don't know it nearly as well as I'd like, but I'm an infinitely better player for having learnt it as well as I have so far.

Stoffeltoo

+1 on Keira's comment for a teacher.
Personal experience has proven the value.
I should have started years back :-[

TokyoP0P

studmissile wrote: What a nightmare! ..........this book helped me when nothing else could!

http://www.amazon.com/Fretboard-Theory-Including-Progressions-Application-ebook/product-reviews/B004ASNACS/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#R2GW2Q9J05BN5F

otherwise like TokyoPOP said, improvising/jamming over backing tracks try and build up an ear!

This thread and watching Guthrie Govan navigate and improvise over any genre thrown at him has inspired me to learn some theory.

I might start with this book.

ChiChi

I found that www.fretjam.com has easy to understand information on everything I have wondered about so far. I was looking up scales and it had me linking back all the time - right back down to the basics. I learnt so much in just a few short reads ?

Attila

Wern

have a gander at this post to get you going ...scales shcmales ....make music .......

http://www.guitarforum.co.za/guitar-lessons/understanding-the-guitar-fretboard-and-playing-by-ear/

OldButNew

I've trawled the 'net and reckon this is the best free site out there - over 58m hits up to 2011........! Incredible free offerings from beginner to advanced: http://www.justinguitar.com/

V8

Attila Barath wrote: Wern

have a gander at this post to get you going ...scales shcmales ....make music .......

http://www.guitarforum.co.za/guitar-lessons/understanding-the-guitar-fretboard-and-playing-by-ear/

+1, thanks for reminder Attila. It made it onto bookmark toolbar...high praise!

I didn't manage to get all that far with it last time around, though I have a good motivational reason to take it further now.

werner-bonthuys

If you nail the Major scale first, the Modes can easily follow. A lot of people see Modes as scalar devices when, in fact, they are Harmonic (Chords) resting places. How well do you understand Harmony and how scales relate to a Key, or a chord progression you want to play over? If you look at the C Major Scale: C D E F G A B C And you harmonize it by taking every third note and playing them as a chord: C D E F G A B C c d e f g a b c e f g a b c d e g a b c d e f g You'll see that they actually form chords you know: C D E F G A B C c d e f g a b c e f g a b c d e g a b c d e f g Cmaj Dmin Emin Fmaj Gmaj Amin Bminb5 Cmaj You can then go further and number these chords (roman numerals) to indicate their function: C D E F G A B C c d e f g a b c e f g a b c d e g a b c d e f g Cmaj Dmin Emin Fmaj Gmaj Amin Bminb5 Cmaj I ii iii IV V vi vii I So, if you look at a chord progression in the key of C Major ex: Cmaj - Emin - Dmin - Gmaj You'll see that they are from the chords you built using the C Major Scale, therefore you can play the C Major scale over any and all of them. By playing any chord in a given key, you are playing the scale it's made from anyway, but just in three (or more) layers. The only thing you have to be wary of are the semi tones. One will always sound better than the other over different chords. The trick is to keep playing and not stop when you hear something sounds wrong. That's why Pentatonics are easier to make sound good - no semi tones. Sorry if I'm being presumptuous about you knowledge of music. So... looking at this stuff, how well do you understand what a key is? Where are you on all of this? I attached the boxed shapes of the major scale that show the intervals too. (no copyright - my own work)

Stoffeltoo

Thank you Werner. even more on scales demystified!

wern101

So it's been a long december and no, that's not a counting crows quote, it really was.

I didn't get around to playing as much as i wanted to partly because it was insanely hot (live in nelspruit, music room is in the loft with no aircon) and partly because i needed to just chil.

but anyway. Thanks for all the replies and posts. i have visited justinguitar and fretjam and am really impressed by the variety and sheer multitude of training they offer! thanks to ChiChi and oldbutnew for the links! :goodtimes:

Attila Barath wrote: Wern

have a gander at this post to get you going ...scales shcmales ....make music .......

http://www.guitarforum.co.za/guitar-lessons/understanding-the-guitar-fretboard-and-playing-by-ear/

So i read this post last night and was BLOWN AWAY by the simplicity of it. Do Re Mi... who knew right!! I am so excited by this I can hardly contain myself. I am going to 'invent' a way of memorizing the Do's Re's Mi's etc on the fretboard. i think this will help.

from all the posts i now understand that the major scale is always in C and is also the Ionian mode, that the major scale shape doesn't change and that it is a good way to start playing lead, even if its just in one position. gotta start somewhere right!

werner.bonthuys wrote:
How well do you understand Harmony and how scales relate to a Key, or a chord progression you want to play over?

That's why Pentatonics are easier to make sound good - no semi tones.

Sorry if I'm being presumptuous about you knowledge of music.

So... looking at this stuff, how well do you understand what a key is? Where are you on all of this?

Werner, thanks. in truth, your post went a little over my head, but i will read it again. What i got from it was that pentatonics do not have semi tones. That, at least, now is a mystery solved as I wasnt' sure how a pentatonic scale is different from a 'normal one'. To answer your questions:
* i now understand better how scales related to a key, but not there quite yet.
* i understand harmony mostly with vocals. (understand is a strong word, maybe 'know how to apply a vocal harmony')
* i understand music key's pretty well.

Phew...that's it from me. thanks again everyone! You are champions!