Keeping it clean: Headroom?

Charlie4

The sweetest OD tone you can get is when those power amp tubes are cooking. The problem however is really cranking your amp to get to that sweet spot. I have a single channel, 18W amp and even that upsets a few people. Guthrie Govan really shows what a volume knob is made for, doesn't he? ?
Getting that lush clean sound however can be different though. How many guys these days don't play miked up?

I always here this come up in amp-buying discussions so to the gigging and non-gigging guys; How much clean headroom do you prefer? Is having or not having it, when mr PA is there to help out, really even an issue?

Discuss...

MIKA-the-better-one

i like it to overdrive a fair amount, ... such as always overdriving!!!!
Clean is fun until I actually try play with other people then I hate it. Amp breakup compresses and that makes everything sound better in a band mi.
18 watts is often to quiet for me and I crank it as much as I can. I find 30-40 watts cranked up is what I like live. Depending on the venue I will mc. Rarely do I actually play a venue where I need it

ezietsman

Mika, can you still hear properly?

I was watching a video yesteday, one of those rig rundown premier guitar ones, of J.D. Simo. He plays live with 2 1960s Marshall 100 Watt Super Leads. (Just one at a time). Without attenuation, and he plays them on 10. He says he doesn't even want a tuner between the guitar and amp because of tone. I cannot believe he doesn't have any hearing damage.

I have an 18 watt amp, and it uses a 2x12 cabinet with G12H30s (100dB). I have never gigged it above half power (I can adjust the power on mine). When I set it to full 18 watt power and adjust the drive to taste (a lot) it hurts my ears. I could probably use it like that in a big space if I don't stand in front of the speakers and if I point the cab away from the stage.

Back to the question. It would depend. Personally I don't need completely clean cleans, so I can make do with a less powerful amp. I mostly like to have a bit of dirt on even clean sounds. I guess some people will need a pretty beefy amp under certain circumstances. If you need loud clean sounds i.e. very clean cleans unmic'd, then you're going to be looking for something bigger than an 18 watt.

Charlie4

I remember in 2005 I was at a gig where the guitarist of Neshama cranked his 4x12 Marshall. He didn't need no stinkin' PA. The sound was very directional and sounded great, but standing in front of that thing was brutal.

There's a fine line between great tone and what? Speak up!

On the clean side, I'm just thinking about all different kinds of players, lapsteel, country and some kind of ambient church vibe. I need the tools to be versatile and at this stage it seems perhaps get a 12-18 waTter and crank it AND another bigger amp for cleans? Twin Reverb etc. Budget of course for us plebs. We're not in the States now are we? :roflmao:

Or perhap just use lower gain preamp valves?
http://proguitarshop.com/andyscorner/the-magic-of-the-v1-preamp-tube
I've not heard many guys experiment with this though. NOS 12AX7's fetch ridiculous prices but the lower gain ones can be found at good prices. (SOURCE: EBAY)

Put in a lower gain preamp valve in V1 to give a bit more headroom before breakup and then just use an OD pedal to nudge it along nicely. If you balance the levels you'll probably be able to get good clean and OD sounds.

Or just you ur volume knerb. :rolleyes:

MIKA-the-better-one

Ithink I can still hear normal.....
Honestly its for me all about the power and punch behind me.
Here is a small venue about 60 people wood floors and I am on the floor. And I am using a Marshall Bluesbreaker, Cranked along with a ac30 with top boost cranked. But to match I have a bassist with a super loud marshall amp and a loud drummer and a keys player with a Roland jazzchorus 120.
I cant swing lower wattage amps live,

MIKA-the-better-one

DarkAvatar

Your best bet would be to get something like the morley volume pedal.

Dial in your tone and lower the volume with the pedal.
Makes for great tone at any level without compromising tone.

MIKA-the-better-one

The new Vertex Boost, which can also be used as a volume pedal is perfect ... a bit pricey but worth it

ezietsman

DarkAvatar wrote: Your best bet would be to get something like the morley volume pedal.

Dial in your tone and lower the volume with the pedal.
Makes for great tone at any level without compromising tone.

You have clearly never cranked a valve amp before. If you did what you're suggesting the amp will go cleaner instead of quieter. (yes, even if you did it in the effects loop). This trick only works if your amp is running clean or you have a solid state amp.

@Mika. I guess I can understand what volume you're talking about. My amp must be about as loud as a JTM45. 18 watter with 100dB speakers vs 35watt with 98dB speakers? That is still very very loud. Do you play with plugs?

singemonkey

In a largish hall (maybe 200 capacity) I once ran EZ's 18W at 90% power. My combo has a single, less efficient speaker, and once it goes over half power, even outdoors, the noise complaints begin.

Our liteIIB amps are most certainly not designed for headroom. But once you're over half power, with the volume set on 4-6, a half turn of the guitar volume knob will clean it right up, even with humbuckers, without a very significant loss of volume. A quarter turn makes it clean enough for my purposes.

Overdrive from straining power tubes is an evil sound. My suggestion for the church bands is to get a modelling system in an ipad. Way less blasphemous. ?

Max

singemonkey wrote:

Overdrive from straining power tubes is an evil sound. My suggestion for the church bands is to get a modelling system in an ipad. Way less blasphemous. ?

Slightly off topic

+1 Use something like Tonestack or Bias with a decent interface and you can cover a wide spectrum. In a band setup its difficult to hear the difference between modellers and tube amps imo ?.

singemonkey

Max wrote: In a band setup its difficult to hear the difference between modellers and tube amps imo ?.

Yeah. It's like there are people who struggle to tell the difference between Four Cousins and Meerlust Rubicon. ?

Max

singemonkey wrote:
Max wrote: In a band setup its difficult to hear the difference between modellers and tube amps imo ?.
Yeah. It's like there are people who struggle to tell the difference between Four Cousins and Meerlust Rubicon. ?

What can I say, I am a cheapskate ?.

ezietsman

Haha.

I think most people would struggle to tell the difference in sound between a decent modeller and a tube amp IF you only get to listen to it being played on a certain 'setting'. The difference comes in when you play harder and softer, turn the guitar's volume up and down. Astonishingly, some people do actually use those not-on-10 and not only to kill the sound between songs. This is why the question of headroom is being asked and this is why people play valve amps. Because the headroom determines the loudest clean sound you can coax out of an amp AND good valve amps can be used without pedals. You can 'switch' from clean to dirty using guitar controls. That's why they're there. These tricks don't work on modellers though. Not yet, anyway.

Max

ez wrote: Haha.

I think most people would struggle to tell the difference in sound between a decent modeller and a tube amp IF you only get to listen to it being played on a certain 'setting'. The difference comes in when you play harder and softer, turn the guitar's volume up and down. Astonishingly, some people do actually use those not-on-10 and not only to kill the sound between songs. This is why the question of headroom is being asked and this is why people play valve amps. Because the headroom determines the loudest clean sound you can coax out of an amp AND good valve amps can be used without pedals. You can 'switch' from clean to dirty using guitar controls. That's why they're there. These tricks don't work on modellers though. Not yet, anyway.

I agree and I'm not saying there is no difference but for the non-muso in the crowd its more difficult for him/her to notice these nuances. By no means am I an expert in this but it's just a view from someone who is not as experienced as the rest of the guys/gals here.
However the best clean tone I have heard is from the Two Rock amps, plenty of headroom.

GuitarDoge

This is how I use my 2 channel 30 watt orange:

I set the clean channel to be just sparkly(ie just before and noticeable overdrive), then into that I use a clean boost to push it into that nice creamy saturation(because it's almost there doesn't raise volume much at all), a tubescreamer for slightly more gain(also as more of a boost) and a fuzz just because fuzz is life.

Then I've set the dirty channel to quite a high gain for that modern pre-amp sound, which I can also use the clean boost or ts to up the gain.

I know you can do a lot with one channel and a volume knob. But with pedals you can get almost all those good juicy tones.

Also, a modeling system will sound the same for most of the audience, but I think it's more fun and unique to play a valve amp.

Oh, and depending on how loud I want it I can set my Orange to 30,15 or 7 watts(works for almost all situations) however it does become spongier with a drop in wattage.

rikus

I think I'm also on the "the audience probably can't tell the difference" side of the fence, but the digital stuff isn't as interactive. I have my amp set loud clean, not quite edge of breakup and I use my Amp 11, Tubescreamer and OCD to add levels of gain on top of that.

While I don't use my guitar volume knob all that much to go between dirty and clean, I do use different string attack a lot, and the digital stuff that I've played just doesn't feel the same to me as a player. Playing softly cleans it up, dig it for some hair etc...

ezietsman

GuitarDoge wrote: This is how I use my 2 channel 30 watt orange:

I set the clean channel to be just sparkly(ie just before and noticeable overdrive), then into that I use a clean boost to push it into that nice creamy saturation(because it's almost there doesn't raise volume much at all), a tubescreamer for slightly more gain(also as more of a boost) and a fuzz just because fuzz is life.

Then I've set the dirty channel to quite a high gain for that modern pre-amp sound, which I can also use the clean boost or ts to up the gain.

I know you can do a lot with one channel and a volume knob. But with pedals you can get almost all those good juicy tones.

Also, a modeling system will sound the same for most of the audience, but I think it's more fun and unique to play a valve amp.

Oh, and depending on how loud I want it I can set my Orange to 30,15 or 7 watts(works for almost all situations) however it does become spongier with a drop in wattage.

Yeah that sounds about right. My amps only have 1 channel and no drive knob but I can set the wattage anywhere from 0.5 - 18 Watt (and prob 1-12W on the Tweed). I used to use the 18 watter turned about halfway up. That gives a good crunch with the guitar volume open, and clean with the guitar volume less than halfway, and then I used a OD pedal turned quite loud and bright for cutting the mix during solos. This was in a noisy band. In a less noisy band I'd just use the amp turned up a bit more and probably ditch the pedal.

MIKA-the-better-one

Ah no guys... Audience cant tell the differance between modeller and tube amp BUT!!!!!!! You can, and I can if I am watching you. And in most circles that I play in such as " if I am at a show and an opening band for us pulls out a digital amp or whatever I am probably going to go get food, talk some shit, or very skeptically expect the worst."
Digital amps have their place but in a lot of circles just don't sound good. People may not pin point it down to "oh the guitar amp is a modeller" But it sounds thin, scooped and just not real.

Basically if I pulled out an amp on stage and it was not tube I most likely will not enjoy my show or even make it through.

Live and in practice I dont use ear plugs, I hate what they do to sound. I also kind of feel with the music I play it needs to be cranked loud so I push harder, play harder, sing harder. All that makes for a better show.

Charlie4

Max wrote:
ez wrote: Haha.

I think most people would struggle to tell the difference in sound between a decent modeller and a tube amp IF you only get to listen to it being played on a certain 'setting'. The difference comes in when you play harder and softer, turn the guitar's volume up and down. Astonishingly, some people do actually use those not-on-10 and not only to kill the sound between songs. This is why the question of headroom is being asked and this is why people play valve amps. Because the headroom determines the loudest clean sound you can coax out of an amp AND good valve amps can be used without pedals. You can 'switch' from clean to dirty using guitar controls. That's why they're there. These tricks don't work on modellers though. Not yet, anyway.
I agree and I'm not saying there is no difference but for the non-muso in the crowd its more difficult for him/her to notice these nuances. By no means am I an expert in this but it's just a view from someone who is not as experienced as the rest of the guys/gals here.
However the best clean tone I have heard is from the Two Rock amps, plenty of headroom.

Who would not LOVE a Two Rock amp? Tone for days...
Pity they can cost near a small car. :'(

My amp has a volume knob and a tone knob to work with. Single channel so getting everything in one go is tricky but most certainly possible. If an amp is a drill then OD pedals are drill bits. Take a certain Count who used to use a Cornford Roadhouse 30/50: He got all his clean and OD tones from that single channel amp and they sound might fine indeed. 8)

MIKA the better one wrote: Ah no guys... Audience cant tell the differance between modeller and tube amp BUT!!!!!!! You can, and I can if I am watching you. And in most circles that I play in such as " if I am at a show and an opening band for us pulls out a digital amp or whatever I am probably going to go get food, talk some shit, or very skeptically expect the worst."
Digital amps have their place but in a lot of circles just don't sound good. People may not pin point it down to "oh the guitar amp is a modeller" But it sounds thin, scooped and just not real.

Basically if I pulled out an amp on stage and it was not tube I most likely will not enjoy my show or even make it through.

Live and in practice I dont use ear plugs, I hate what they do to sound. I also kind of feel with the music I play it needs to be cranked loud so I push harder, play harder, sing harder. All that makes for a better show.

>☹
Mika, for the sake of your longevity as a musician you should SERIOUSLY reconsider. Tinnitus is no joke.