Tokai-SA
As far as I'm aware a counterfeit is a guitar, watch, bag, etc, that attempts to defraud the consumer into believing they're buying a product made by Nike, Rolex, Gibson, Fender, Gucci, etc, when in fact the product is not made by one of those companies.
If a guitar has the Gibson or Fender name/decal on the headstock and it's not made by Gibson or Fender then it's a counterfeit or a fake...correct?
Just like a watch that has the name Rolex on the face, or a bag that has the name Gucci on the bag, or a Nike T shirt has Nike printed on it when in fact the product is not made by Rolex, Nike or Gucci...then the product is a counterfeit/fake.
Comments.
GuitarDoge
Are Tokais:
Copies? ... Yes
Very, very good copies? ... Yes
Good enough to better than some of the originals? ... Yes!!!
Counterfeits? ... No
All the Tokais I've played have been great guitars copied from the original designs. However, they don't delude anyone into thinking they're something they're not which is what a counterfeit is. Tokai as a brand is honest with their name on the headstock. And because of their quality, they have no need to lie about anything.
psyx
The headstock says Tokai, the case says Tokai, the quality and excellent craftsmanship says Tokai and the Sound says that this is an awesome guitar.
I buy a Tokai because I want a Tokai. Tokai has earned it's place as a manufacturer who does not need to hide behind well made copies.
Tokai-SA
Thanks for the response guys.
Please, I'm not looking for reviews or compliments, etc, etc....just your opinions on the counterfeit scenario.
Thanks again...
Charlie4
Counterfeit = Fake = Inferior.
Tokai is by ZERO means inferior. Ha ha! For those who want to make money, like our pals at Gibbo & co, they can probably argue Tokai's profit margins are inferior. :roflmao:
bindog
Counterfeit or fake in my opinion implies impersonation of the original product, by using the brand name in this case, or by intending to dupe a system or people into believing an item is identical to the original when it is actually an inferior product or of less value than the original (money for example)
Tokai does neither, simply replicates the les Paul shape (in the case of my gorgeous, sweet as f@&# 150), and proudly displays their own manufacturer markings.
So nope, not counterfeits in my opinion.
Keira-WitherKay
yes i must say i totally agree with you Tokai SA , Tokais or in fact any other brand making "iconic design" guitars are purely copies and definitely NOT counterfeit .... UNLESS they label their product with the brand name of another company ...... which is inexcusable
and yes i think also using any copyrighted title /name like Les Paul or telecaster is also a big NO NO ... however i don't see how a company can lay claim to a particular shape or headstock design ..personally that irks me .... i would prefer to have a copy being a true replica not with altered headstock shape
...however most companies make copies of the Iconic designs and call just them something else..... you can find les paul/ES335/start/tele copies made by cort/yamaha/tokai/ibanez/heritage(gibson only)/vintage/fretking/SX to name just a few even boutique makes like suhr /Rick Kelly and tons of other independent high end custom luthiers are basically just very high end copies of the iconic designs ..... so why the big deal????
" imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"
and being a telecaster fan ...i see on the telecaster forum and jazz forums i belong to they use the term "T-type" to describe any telecaster shape guitar from budget to high end boutique ,not made by Fender or an affiliate of them, and rightly so.
so why the question? has there been accusations made of copies being counterfeit ?
arjunmenon
I don't consider Tokai guitars to be counterfeits of Fenders or Gibsons.
That's like saying S & T style guitars by G & L, Tom Anderson, John Suhr, Ron Kirn, K Line et al are all counterfeits...in which case "counterfeit" isn't such a dirty word.
V8
Tokai SA wrote:
As far as I'm aware a counterfeit is a guitar, watch, bag, etc, that attempts to defraud the consumer into believing they're buying a product made by Nike, Rolex, Gibson, Fender, Gucci, etc, when in fact the product is not made by one of those companies.
That would be my interpretation too.
I see the issue as a simple reasonable man test = "Would the average consumer think a Tokai is the Gibson/Fender that it is based on?". You could infer that the shapes/spec's are similar that the average consumer could be mislead - but in these brand conscious times, I honestly don't think anyone could confuse a Gibson/Fender and a Tokai in a way that materially mattered. Unlike the fibson/chibson counterfeit/fakes that we see popping up now and again, with cases, serial numbers and branding that is as close to the original as possible.
Personally, I'm far more interested in technical innovations (Steinberger, Klein, Parker Fly, Chapman Stick) than a iteration of the same thing.
IceCreamMan
The definition of the word counterfeit is the crux of the matter here.... as such Tokai is not guilty of such. As others have mentioned the goods are clearly marked etc.
charleshaupt
Tokai is legit and not counterfeit. I own a Tokai SG88 and can honestly say it sounds better than the Gibson SG ,s I've heard. If Tokai was counterfeit surely it would,nt sound good ?
doc-phil
There is a difference between a counterfeit and the concept of passing off.
I read a news report this morning about a dispute between Nestle (KitKat) and International Foodstuffs Company (Break) that is heading to the Constitutional Court. The SCA recently held that the Break chocolate is confusingly similar to Nestle's KitKat in form and shape. When I last saw the Break chocolate, it had a blue wrapper with a red logo. The KitKat wrapper is of course red and white. Underneath the wrapper the 2 products look virtually identical apart from the brand logo on the chocolate itself.
I haven't read the judgment, but I think in this case it came down to the form of the product (the chocolate fingers) being confusingly similar to the public.
Could the same argument be made against Tokai by Fender and Gibson? Perhaps.
I have two Tokai Firebirds, and they are superb. I'm not suggesting that Tokai is passing off, and I would hate to ever see a dispute arising. When it comes to guitars, I don't think the body shape is the main identifier for consumers - we're looking for build quality and tone. Yes, I was after a Firebird style guitar when I bought mine, but I bought the Tokais because of its reputation for quality and value for money.
studmissile
copies and not counterfeits - and happy Tokai owner!
beardedmoose
I wouldnt use any of the above words. Tokai Replicates these "Iconic" Designs they do it so well in fact that Old Gibbo Can go do you know what to themselves. Personally I cannot comment on the Breezy's and Springy's as I havnt had the fortune of picking one up. But the ES types, SG types and the Love Rock models are fantastic instruments. I own a Jap SG-88 and I will never ever let her go.... Even the Chinese Models I have played are fantastic..
BOTTOM LINE Tokai's Luthiers make amazing replica's of iconic instruments.
I am faithfull to the brand until the day i keel over.
:goodtimes:
AlanRatcliffe
Copies and not counterfeits.
As shown above, Tokai has a significant enough brand name in their own right that some players actively seek out the brand in preference to the competition. Others will seek out the competition's product in preference to the Tokai (for a variety of reasons).
Some of us even went a third route too... it's by no means a two horse race, and each brand has their own take on the classic guitars of the '50s. Some of the differences are relatively subtle to a non-player, but they are there nonetheless and influence the purchasing decisions of the players. ?
So I'd actually go a step further than the first statement and say "competition, not counterfeit".
IceCreamMan
Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
Copies and not counterfeits.
As shown above, Tokai has a significant enough brand name in their own right that some players actively seek out the brand in preference to the competition. Others will seek out the competition's product in preference to the Tokai (for a variety of reasons).
Some of us even went a third route too... it's by no means a two horse race, and each brand has their own take on the classic guitars of the '50s. Some of the differences are relatively subtle to a non-player, but they are there nonetheless and influence the purchasing decisions of the players. ?
So I'd actually go a step further than the first statement and say "competition, not counterfeit".
well, hello there sir..
rikus
Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
So I'd actually go a step further than the first statement and say "competition, not counterfeit".
Hello there indeed! :goodtimes: I personally agree with this sentiment. I struggle to connect with the LP shape, but 335s have something special that I can't shake... If I were to ever pull the trigger it would most definitely be a Tokai as opposed to a Gibbo/Epi.
Lfan
Gibson and Fender fans will defend Gibson and Fender. Tokai fans will defend Tokai's.
I just have one problem.
If Toyota builds a car that looks identical to a Lamborghini in every way possible, shape, design, cosmetics, but its still a Toyota with badges and all. Would that be ok? I dont think so. Is it happening. No.
So why should it be ok for Tokai to do that?
Why didnt Tokai design their own guitars, like PRS, Gretsch, etc. Respectable and ORIGINAL guitar makers.
I've never read any thread on any forum where people were debating if a PRS or a Gretsch is a fake Gibson or Fender.
IceCreamMan
TGF wrote:
I just have one problem.
If Toyota builds a car that looks identical to a Lamborghini in every way possible, shape, design, cosmetics, but its still a Toyota with badges and all. Would that be ok? I dont think so. Is it happening. No.
Toyato 86 and Subaru wrx.....
just being facetious hey ?
Lfan
IceCreamMan wrote:
TGF wrote:
I just have one problem.
If Toyota builds a car that looks identical to a Lamborghini in every way possible, shape, design, cosmetics, but its still a Toyota with badges and all. Would that be ok? I dont think so. Is it happening. No.
Toyato 86 and Subaru wrx.....
just being facetious hey ?
Lol
Everyone knows that Tokai's are not Fake. That would be illegal and Tokai would not have been able to trade. Thats not the problem allot of people have.
People get annoyed because Tokai copied. Thats it.
Is there even an original design by Tokai?
