Tone woods...??? (wooden spoon post)

Spyke · 2009-02-10T09:26:13+00:00

While my knowledge of tone woods and the like are functional at best, I thought I'd learn a little more by starting a bit of a debate, friendly of course. I...

Tone woods...??? (wooden spoon post)

g1

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: @Rene - The future is the modelling guitar. As with modelling amps taking over the lower price amp scene, we'll probably see the same thing happening with guitars in the future, with everything below a certain price point being modelled and only the more expensive models being either wood/modelled hybrids (remember the source tone has an influence on a modelled guitar) or traditional electric instruments such as we are used to.

haha I can see it now. With the flick of a switch you can swap between mahogany body and maple body...

Heath

i would really like one of those , a multi fx tonewood modeller with 15 kinds of woods and neck configurations .....

Wizard

This thread has briefly touched on something very important.
Over and above the sound an instrument makes there are other critical dimensions - what it looks like, what it feels like to play and what it feels like to own.

The body, no matter what it's made of is also the thing you hold.
You could swap out the body for a simple holdable frame ... but would you like the way it looked and felt?

This brings in the ever important 'culture'.
The Strat shape is iconic - losing the body doesn't only lose the wood, or thing to hold ... it also destroys the icon.

I stared at a picture of the Gittler ...
... I personally don't really care if its got the perfect guitar sound, I don't want one as a substitute for my current guitar.

And this brings in the subjective matter of taste ...

And I think I have now gone, unrecoverably, onto a completely different track from the thread title ...

Wizard

At the risk of re-opening a 'flogged-to-death' topic, I've seen more bass guitars with 'wood-look' bodies than normal guitars.
Culture or reason?

Keira-WitherKay

well i must say ...back in early 90's i was still a pro bassist doing sessions in europe... and i used a steinberger bass the one with the carbon graphite body and neck....(not the hybrid model of carbon graphite neck and wood body ).. and it was awesome.... and extremely playable with emg pickups that gave the sound engineer no noise or probs.... and we just DI'd it into the board.... and i played pop to rock to jingles to jazz to funky slap bass and i never used any other bass than that..... and the sound was great ...... so i must say by comparison it blew away any of my other basses i had at the time...and i had a fair collection a 60's fender jazz bass and 2x fender 70's precisions and ibanez's and an alembic(which i only bought cos stanley clarke had one.....and in fact it was hardly ever played.)

but the only thing i found is other bassists who tried it loved the sound ....and the feel... but they could not get their head around the headless bodyless design...... so i think a lot of musicians reject technology in favour of the "classic look" and i guess guitarists are even more driven by this than bassists...cos at the time the guitar version was available and sounded awesome but guitarists would not even try em.... but many bassists used the steinberger..... lol i even went on to playing a custom made upright stick bass.... which made double bass playing soooooooo much easier since travelling was no longer a prob....and again the sound rivalled any uprights 'live" sound.so yeah technology does work....

so yeah traditions and the guitar hero thing had lots to do with it......if Jimi hendrix or clapton or steve via had played a steinberger ...nobody would be able to even give a strat away .....

anyway now i'm also a traditionalist and playing acoustic concert classical nylon... and wood and traditional design are important to me too..... "the traditionalist virus got me too"

all i can say give technology a chance.... and many of the cries of instruments being toneless cos they not made out of wood.......... is just the excuse ...cos they do sound awesome ...and don't we just love excuses..to explain away our beliefs......

and i am "guilty" of this too cos i'm surely not gonna play on a carbon fibre concert classical...and yes there is a USA or is it canadian(i think) company making acoustics with carbon fibre.... but no give me a spruce top and it better be solid too heheheheh even if the carbon fibre sounds better and never cracks....and remains stable....and does not alter the sound over time... it JUST WON'T HAVE THE TONE heheheheh so i prob won't even try one ......... well mmmmm maybe only after Paco di lucia records his next album on one.... heheheh then it will be acceptable....

peace and light
Keira

AlanRatcliffe

Wizard wrote: I've seen more bass guitars with 'wood-look' bodies than normal guitars. Culture or reason?

Combination of things I think. A few educated guesses:
Bass luthiers were hit by dwindling supplies of tonewoods before those building guitars (because of the relatively large sizes they needed), so they were first to really embrace alternate tonewoods like wenge and bubinga, most of which are best left natural or finished in clear.

For the most part, bassists find natural tones with few or relatively subtle effects work better for their instrument. It's likely that this mindset carried across to their finishes too.

Bassists have better taste than guitarists? (Not sure - I haven't tasted many) ?

Bob-Dubery

Keira WitherKay wrote:
all i can say give technology a chance.... and many of the cries of instruments being toneless cos they not made out of wood.......... is just the excuse ...cos they do sound awesome ...and don't we just love excuses..to explain away our beliefs......

and i am "guilty" of this too cos i'm surely not gonna play on a carbon fibre concert classical...and yes there is a USA or is it canadian(i think) company making acoustics with carbon fibre.... but no give me a spruce top and it better be solid too heheheheh even if the carbon fibre sounds better and never cracks....and remains stable....and does not alter the sound over time... it JUST WON'T HAVE THE TONE heheheheh so i prob won't even try one ......... well mmmmm maybe only after Paco di lucia records his next album on one.... heheheh then it will be acceptable....

But this is surely hitting the nail on the head. Much as we might like the look of certain woods or body shapes, the instrument is a tool. And if an instrument delivers in terms of functionality and sound, then everything else should take 2nd place to that - if the instrument is to be played rather than collected.

Clapton still plays strats, but not vintage strats. Different pickups, different materials in some areas. What he's playing delivers what he needs on stage - so he plays it. Gilmour is famous for having very old strats, but they're not standard. Again he is sticking with what delivers for him.

I'd agree with Keira in that I like the sound of a spruce top, but I hope that if I were buying another guitar and there options with tops made of different materials (including non-wood materials) that I'd consider them on the basis of what they deliver when played. Unless, again, I was buying a guitar as an investment piece. Then I'd want solid wood and preferably Brazilian rosewood for the back and sides.

At some point in the future I hope to take delivery of a Smoothtalker. That's hardly a conventional guitar, and some might reject it just because it doesn't LOOK like a "guitar" (and I know people who have). But I've seen them in use, played one myself and whilst they are not conventional they do have a strong and useful sound - plus you can get up to the 22nd fret with ease if that's what floats your boat.

I did go for a spruce soundboard though ?

Wizard

It's been shown that a given perfume can be sold at very different prices, depending on the packaging.
In one case a perfume being sold in large bottles at low cost for teenagers, was put into smaller bottles; given an upmarket look; aimed at the wealthy bunch and the price vastly increased - and sales soared.

And the clients were genuinely happy with their purchase.
The new clients weren't fools who'd been conned.
(How do you attach a monetary value to a smell anyway?)
They had been given an overall experience that was worth (to them) what they were paying for.

Ever tried drinking good wine out of a polystyrene cup?
Tastes nasty.

A good steak in a take-away box?
Not pleasant.

--> the experience of the 'core' product is affected by the whole package.

Avoiding the religious fervour of whether wood affects the sound; it is certainly a 'design' element that impacts on the eyes, touch and smell.
And that's 3 extra senses.
(taste is a 4th for the very weird among us)

The 'whole package' is ignored at peril.

I personally just 'like' wood ... and I don't have to justify it.
I just do.

And it's cool if someone else doesn't.

And it's cool if I change my mind in a year. (But I don't think I will)

Keira - I hear and agree with most of what you say.
Just don't like the words of 'guilty' or 'virus' etc.
It's fine for people to have different tastes.

g1

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
Wizard wrote: I've seen more bass guitars with 'wood-look' bodies than normal guitars. Culture or reason?
Combination of things I think. A few educated guesses:
Bass luthiers were hit by dwindling supplies of tonewoods before those building guitars (because of the relatively large sizes they needed), so they were first to really embrace alternate tonewoods like wenge and bubinga, most of which are best left natural or finished in clear.

For the most part, bassists find natural tones with few or relatively subtle effects work better for their instrument. It's likely that this mindset carried across to their finishes too.

Bassists have better taste than guitarists? (Not sure - I haven't tasted many) ?

The differentiating factor is that guitarists are boring. It's just the way it is. Bass luthier's will pioneer the way and guitar luthiers will always be lagging 20 years behind ?

AlanRatcliffe

guitar luthiers will always be lagging 20 years behind

Actually, you will find that the electric guitar has a 20 year lead over the electric bass. More if you count the early small production electrics.

Anyway, aren't bass luthiers just failed guitar luthiers? Just like bassists are usually failed guitarists? ?

Wizard

Popped into Plumstead Bothners after work for a quick toy shop perve.
Many beautiful wooden basses. Only one wood-look strat ... at 24k.

Manfred-Klose

Popped into Plumstead Bothners after work for a quick toy shop perve.

Seems like the guitar has bitten you big time(a quote by eddie van halen)

g1

Seeing as we're talking about tonewoods, here's some of the pieces I picked up from my recent trip to the lumber yard:

Wizard

g1 wrote: Seeing as we're talking about tonewoods, here's some of the pieces I picked up from my recent trip to the lumber yard:

wow - quite a load you got there.
Getting new wood is really exciting.
Love the feel, smell, ... everything.
yum

And I can see you're the same - itching to share your pictures with us
?

AlanRatcliffe

Y'know, it's really nice to know I'm not the only wood fetishist around here anymore. ?

Wizard

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Y'know, it's really nice to know I'm not the only wood fetishist around here anymore. ?

If I need to cheer myself up, I'll go into my workshop just to be greeted by the smell of wood.
w-a-y fetished on this side I'm afraid.

Manfred-Klose

G1, nice ?

Where do you source your wood from?

Manfred-Klose

Y'know, it's really nice to know I'm not the only wood fetishist around here anymore.

I use to work at woodworking furniture workshop, it was really fun to go to work everyday, the smell of wood just calms me down, thats until i smelled kamfer(it is used to make vicks).

When searching for a certain piece of wood in the workshop, we were trained to remember the smell of the wood in order to recognise what type of wood it was, since some of the woods look similar.
(by useing a piece of sandpaper and sand until the smell comes out)

I know it sounds crazy,and some of you may not believe me, but after a while you get use to it.

I only recently started working with wood again, and it is so much fun.

Wizard

Manfred Klose wrote: (by useing a piece of sandpaper and sand until the smell comes out)
I know it sounds crazy,and some of you may not believe me, but after a while you get use to it.

Not crazy at all - the first thing I do when I cut a fresh piece of wood is smell it. And every wood smells very different.
Kiaat smells wholesome and healthy - my favourite smell.
Rosewood smells like my grandmother's bathroom.
Padauk has a very distinct smell that permeates everything - still making up my mind if I like it.
Don't remember Maple having a smell ... mmm ... must go back and double check that one
My work generates a LOT of sawdust, so lots of smells