Les Paul quirk or bad fret job?

Ironstine

Im hoping to get the advice of some Gibson aficionado's regarding an issue im having...
Ive only played a couple of les pauls but dont recall having this problem, although i never spent much time on any of those intruments.
High E string slipping off the edge of the fretboard. I literally cannot do even the slightest bit of vibrato and it slips off the edge. I bought the guitar with a terrible setup so didnt spend much time with it before i sent it for a setup.
Its a 2004 LP custom

So basically as the title says, Les Paul quirk or bad fret job?

lapdawg

Ironstine wrote: So basically as the title says, Les Paul quirk or bad fret job?

It doesn't sound like either to me.
It sounds like the problem isn't in the fret plane, but rather with alignment to edge of the fretboard.
Before we speculate further, lets diagnose properly.
Some clear pictures will do it. Lay the LP on its back, get a squarely over the neck as possible & take a pic spanning nut to at least 9th fret. Take another from 9th to 22nd & post. Please get as directly over it as poss. ..& one more over the bridge / tailpiece

Is the 1st string reasonably parallel to edge of the fingerboard?
Is the low E a similar distance to other other edge?
Are the fret ends OK? They shouldn't be beveled at more than 35deg to the fret plane + rounded to not be sharp.

AlanRatcliffe

lapdawg wrote: It doesn't sound like either to me.

+1. Usually when I've run across this before, it's the grooves in the saddles have been cut a little too far over.

Occasionally it can be the bridge is a little off alignment, but that's relatively rare. The grooves are usually recut to correct this. I've seen some where this has been done and later when the owner changes strings they accidentally flip the bridge and end up with a big alignment problem.

Ironstine

Thanks for the replies guys.

I did do a bit of research before asking this question and the general consensus seems to be the same, that its a nut issue. I personally dont see how moving the string towards the middle of the fretboard, even by a ridiculous 1mm, would prevent it from slipping off the edge... but im more often wrong then right...
I was thinking it has to do with the profile of the fret ends?

ezietsman

That string is quite close to the edge. Mine has probably 1.5 times as much space as that (Its a Tokai though). I don't think it will make all that much difference. Vibrato on the high string is done "up" only, you'll struggle on most guitars to do wide vibrato on that string.

Ironstine

Chocklit_Thunda

Probably have to replace the nut with a narrower string spacing. Just to move that high E more over the fretboard.

studmissile

I think the profile of the fret ends (and binding) doesn't help, but get a luthier to cut a nut.

[Edit] Interesting article and pics, comparing a 1990 standard to the 2009 Traditional with less fretboard?.

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/gibson-les-pauls/237222-pulling-1-string-high-e-off-edge-neck.html

AlanRatcliffe

Are you falling off the fretboard closer to the nut or more as you approach the body? The nut does look to be cut very wide, but doesn't have much influence higher up the fretboard, where the bridge takes over and the tension is lower.

The fret edges can have a big influence, but on a bound fretboard with nibs, the shoulder is usually on the nibs rather than the frets themselves. If the frets have been badly dressed and left with an angle, I suppose they could be causing the problem.
High action and light gauge strings can also make these things worse.

lapdawg

EZ's right - you typically wouldn't do a normal vibrato on the top string. That said if you feel you cannot do what you usually do, then feel is probably the a good indicator that something is out.
That string does look too close to the edge. I think a small distance can have a big effect on feel.

Now, I might be wrong, but your string spacing doesn't look right. Was it hand cut?
It also looks slightly worse towards the nut. 1-2 looks too big. So does 5-6.
But R10 plastic LP nut, hold it next to the one in place & you will see if things don't line up. I would say 0.5mm out = way out.
Let us know.

Ironstine

ez wrote: Vibrato on the high string is done "up" only, you'll struggle on most guitars to do wide vibrato on that string.

Thing is i normally use both techniques of vibrato on the high E, this is the first time Ive encountered this problem, Im almost positive it wasnt there before the setup.

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Are you falling off the fretboard closer to the nut or more as you approach the body?

basically anywhere you put any tension towards the fretboard edge from 2nd fret up.

lapdawg wrote: Now, I might be wrong, but your string spacing doesn't look right. Was it hand cut?
It also looks slightly worse towards the nut. 1-2 looks too big. So does 5-6.
But R10 plastic LP nut, hold it next to the one in place & you will see if things don't line up. I would say 0.5mm out = way out.
Let us know.

The nut is the original one that came with the guitar. Although it is 10 years old it had seen very little play and was kept in its case.
I really hope it is a nut issue but fear the worst as a bad fret job cannot be undone.
thanks or the info

singemonkey

Can't help you with the problem on this specific guitar. Just bear in mind that vibrato on the high E should be all up. No down. This can be achieved in a number of different ways.

I use the Clapton technique (as best I can) where I am only touching the guitar with the index finger. It's like bend vibrato, right? Where you bend the string to it's highest position, then relax slightly, then back - repeat. But now the relax point is the string unbent. So my index finger is on the high E. I push it up slightly by moving my whole hand up, then drop it back to the starting point, and repeat. So I never pull the string down. I only push it up.

Norman86

Obviously not something you would want to hear, but... Has the neck not warped slightly?

Ironstine

Im sure that technique is somewhat to blame, but I've never had this issue on any other guitar. I have reverted to using the "shake the crap out of you hand" technique on that string.
Even when you do an aggressive bend and return, and accidentally go a smidge past resting position, it pops off the side. sometimes even with enthusiastic slides...

I took a super close up, high res pic of the fret profile and its more apparent now that the fret ends are at least somewhat to blame. I will post it this evening.
besides this issue, the guitar plays great and sounds awesome.

Thing that bums me out is that instrument is not cheap. Though it can always be repaired, it will never be the same, or original again.

The neck looks true, no issues there.

singemonkey

Gibson is inconsistent. But you have a beautiful guitar there and I'm sure the problem is fixable. It sounds like there must be some kind of slope towards the fret-end that guides the string off the edge. I certainly don't get this with my Gibsons so it's not an intrinsic design problem but more likely a finishing off error - one that I'm sure can be corrected by a good luthier.

Rowen-M

Had the same problem with my 2004 Les Paul when I got it. Took it to fellow forumite, Slyd. Cut and installed a new bone nut for me and sorted.

singemonkey

Rowen M wrote: Had the same problem with my 2004 Les Paul when I got it. Took it to fellow forumite, Slyd. Cut and installed a new bone nut for me and sorted.

The nut on my SG was appallingly cut. I can't use the vibrato tailpiece at all because the strings stick and it won't go back to tune. That stuff they use also looks cheap as hell (even if it isn't, it looks kak - like PVC or something). I'm looking forward to getting it replaced with bone and properly cut.

Ironstine

Ok, im going to have a look at having a new nut recut.
in the meantime here are some pics of the fret profile

Gearhead

Ironstine wrote: in the meantime here are some pics of the fret profile

Does not look right, should be one curve up to less than 0.5mm of the nibs (of which there are none). These look like they start to fall away from 3mm inward...

G-Man

Rowen M wrote: Had the same problem with my 2004 Les Paul when I got it. Took it to fellow forumite, Slyd. Cut and installed a new bone nut for me and sorted.

+1 Slyd is awesome.