Advice on how to approach song writing

rikus

Hi guys,

I have a friend who's approached me to help her with a few songs she's been working on. She's a helluva singer and has written the lyrics to a couple of songs along with vocal melodies. She's got a natural knack for this so she's doing it on feel and hearing, without any sort of theory guiding her decisions.

She's now asked me to help figure out chords etc to flesh out the songs.

I know just enough theory to be dangerous, so I thought I'd consult the collective wisdom of The Forum.

I've approached it by listening to her vocal melody and tried to map it back to a scale. Once I've gotten a relatively good idea of the scale, and therefore key, I can figure out the chords in that key and go from there trying to find chords the chords that support the melody I'm hearing.

I know that there isn't really a "right" way to do this sort of stuff, but I'm open to any advice you're willing to offer.

In the one song in particular she's doing something in the bridge which is confusing the hell out of me. The melody is using notes outside the scale/key for the rest of the song, so it's obvious she's jumped to a different key. Here is where my theory drops out. It sounds right, so I'm working from the assumption that it's my lack of theory that's giving me uphill and that there must therefore be some sort of explanation for it right? How would I figure out these bridge chords and slot them into the progression?

V8

Rikus wrote: In the one song in particular she's doing something in the bridge which is confusing the hell out of me. The melody is using notes outside the scale/key for the rest of the song, so it's obvious she's jumped to a different key. Here is where my theory drops out. It sounds right, so I'm working from the assumption that it's my lack of theory that's giving me uphill and that there must therefore be some sort of explanation for it right? How would I figure out these bridge chords and slot them into the progression?

Not that I know much about songwriting, so I use a very simple approach - I'd try figure the root note of her bridge melody (hum a note that sounds/feels right throughout the passage) & ask myself happy/sad (major/minor feel) - would give me a starting point. Also using other tunes (similar) as a guideline of what types of chord progressions I could try.

Somewhat OT : I'm always asking myself "Does this make sense in the context of this song?", something Pat Pattison calls "Prosody"

Jayhell

I would go all techy on it, download Reaper, record the vocals, use Reatune in reverse (It is possible, I have done it), this will map the melody to MIDI, Check the midi notes, apply them to a scale, get the chords and tada!

It's all a theory though, but could be really handy if it works. ?

studmissile

Tell her to stick to the money chords! ?

Seriously though is there a vocal recording of it I can hear ?

rikus

Thanks for the feedback guys. Useful. I might try the tech route with Reaper.

All this chord substitution stuff makes my head spin... the bridge has got a minor feel to it, so I'm thinking that I need to try some of the chords from the relative Am or whatever.

Man, how I wish I could go back in time to my 7 year old self and tell him to take piano or something to get at the theory younger...

Manfred-Klose

well if you got the basic chords down by using some theory

Example in key of C:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
C | Dmin | Emin | F | G | Amin | Bdim

But there is a possible key change like you suspect in the bridge, learn to play the melody on guitar, check what notes it is you are playing , and go and find out what chords (broken down into Triads / arrpegios) could possibly fit over those notes. i hope this make sense......

[deleted]

Manfred is on the right path. Obviously you want to look at your 1, 4, 5 and the relative one, four, five in the minor. An easy way to do this is to look at your scale in the circle of fifths. That way you can see which chords are the relative minor chords, and you can move to the Dominant (fifth) modulation very easily.

F C G D A E B is your C major scale : F : fourth; C : root; G : fifth; Dm : relative minor fourth; Am : relative minor root; Em : relative minor fifth; B dim diminished seventh.

Moving to the relative dominant scale, you move your "root" to the G and you use the next seven notes in the circle of fifths to create a new set of 1, 4, 5s (in major and minor). Your set of notes will be:

C G D A E B F#

C : four; G : root; D : fifth; Am : relative minor fourth; Em : relative minor root; Bm : relative minor fifth; F# dim : diminished seventh

To move down the circle of fifths, (if you need an F Major scale for instance), you extend the series in reverse and add a flat : B flat; E flat; A flat; D flat; G flat; C flat; F flat (although people normally only go down to about A flat, just like people normally only go to about B major, which has five sharps).

If you are modulating from C major to C minor, you have to use the circle of fifths to find the relative Major chords to C minor : E flat major.

rikus

Manfred Klose wrote:
well if you got the basic chords down by using some theory

Example in key of C:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
C | Dmin | Emin | F | G | Amin | Bdim

But there is a possible key change like you suspect in the bridge, learn to play the melody on guitar, check what notes it is you are playing , and go and find out what chords (broken down into Triads / arrpegios) could possibly fit over those notes. i hope this make sense......

Thanks Manny! This is how I ended up solving this!

Viccy wrote: Manfred is on the right path. Obviously you want to look at your 1, 4, 5 and the relative one, four, five in the minor. An easy way to do this is to look at your scale in the circle of fifths. That way you can see which chords are the relative minor chords, and you can move to the Dominant (fifth) modulation very easily.

F C G D A E B is your C major scale : F : fourth; C : root; G : fifth; Dm : relative minor fourth; Am : relative minor root; Em : relative minor fifth; B dim diminished seventh.

Moving to the relative dominant scale, you move your "root" to the G and you use the next seven notes in the circle of fifths to create a new set of 1, 4, 5s (in major and minor). Your set of notes will be:

C G D A E B F#

C : four; G : root; D : fifth; Am : relative minor fourth; Em : relative minor root; Bm : relative minor fifth; F# dim : diminished seventh

To move down the circle of fifths, (if you need an F Major scale for instance), you extend the series in reverse and add a flat : B flat; E flat; A flat; D flat; G flat; C flat; F flat (although people normally only go down to about A flat, just like people normally only go to about B major, which has five sharps).

If you are modulating from C major to C minor, you have to use the circle of fifths to find the relative Major chords to C minor : E flat major.

This is great! Thank you for taking the time to write this Viccy! I definitely need to spend some more time learning how to use this.

deebee

Hi Rikus, which suburb does your friend stay in