FruitarGeek
For the Recording buffs out there, this question is for you.
Ive been given a song to work on, and to my mind, it needs the kick to absolutely penetrate through the mix. Its a metallish song. The drums were well recorded, but no matter what trick I do, I can never get it to sound like every other metal song (not heavy/death metal) that I've heard.
So far I've done this:
1. Parallel Compression (this helped giving the kick a lot of body and presence, but it was still too fat sounding)
2. Another parallel compression just for the kick but this time put EQ and boost round 2k range. This too helped, but it also started making my kick have a doubled effect instead of a uniform sound.
My only other option is to try midi triggering where I sample another kick drum everytime the live kick plays. I have never done this before so suggestions and tips, and software advice would be awesome.
But in the end, how do you get that kick to slice?
AlanRatcliffe
For metal, you need a substantial "click" to get the kick to stand out IMO. Think Metallica. I was taught the credit card trick (a different method from the usual one of whipping it out to pay for some new, expensive piece of gear) - tape a credit card to the inside of the head where the beater strikes it from the other side.
If your drums are already recorded, try some pink noise gated with a comp sidechain, keyed from the kick track. Play with settings until it adds the right attack for the track. Fast release times obviously.
You can use software like Drumagog to trigger samples to replace or layer with the kick track too.
AlanRatcliffe
Oh yeah - experiment with distortion on a mult too - can sometimes add just the right character to the attack.
Also try using a highpass filter on a mult instead of just boosting the click frequencies - as always, less phasing issues with a cut than a boost.
FruitarGeek
I will try the distortion. The Pink noise is very subtle. I think another sampled drum is my best bet. Isnt that how its done with most international bands these days?
Neps
Im use to mixing this kind of music live so then mostly its aggresive EQ cuts and mic placement with some compression with a side chain input. Its been a while since Ive done mixing for metal in the studio but, I always tend to head the way I do things live. I butcher EQs!!!
@Alan I like the pink noise idea, never tried that before, might just give it a whirl sometime soon.
Manfred-Klose
1.try and duplicate the kick track, as alan said, try some distortion, gate, multiband compressor or whatever, dont be afraid to push it. and blend that with the orginal kick you have already worked on
2.alternatively, your best option would be to retrigger the kick and get a very nice meaty kick in the mix, mix in a few different kicks if needed, just check frequencies and phasing, will save you alot of hassle from trying to fix something that doesn't want to be fixed,
AlanRatcliffe
Neps wrote:
@Alan I like the pink noise idea, never tried that before
Really? I was taught that alongside doing the same with a sine wave to fatten and "tune" the kick as standard tricks of the trade. Maybe it was just an '80s/'90s thing...
Neps
Ive done the sine wave trick and actually liked it quite a lot, but never thought ahead on the white noise idea.. that is something new to me..
FruitarGeek
Yea I know the sine wave trick too. This pink noise is working well, although does it matter if its white or pink?
Other than that I'm going to try the midi trigger option. The other options don't have a dramatic enough effect. If I don't do midi, I guess my other option would be to (as Manfred suggests) make duplicate kick track and go crazy on it and blend in.
AlanRatcliffe
Adrian Rogowski wrote:
This pink noise is working well, although does it matter if its white or pink?
Pink preferably - attack noise is pretty broadband and you can just highpass filter to the desired low frequency cutoff.
ryanguit
I know this may be obvious, but for someone else reading this later with a similar problem, I'm gonna add this.
Are you listening to track after master limiting and kick has lost its power? Like the kick is now fighting the bass guitar? I like to "master limit" the bass track alone super loud (6db louder at least than where it is going to sit in the mix). Then dial back the level of the bass track by the same 6db.
Now the bass is sounding fairly similar to how it was, however you just gave kick some space to move. It most likely has the master limiter to itself now.
P.S. This is a very application specific technique, I have only ever used this on metal tracks.
FruitarGeek
To be honest with you, I'm not exactly sure what you talking about. I havn't put anything on my master bus that would impact levels.
Another path I could take would be to increase the volume of the kick, although its already hitting at 0db, so I'd have to bring all other tracks down. But I'm just trying to find a way that the industry professionals use. There must be a trick they do to get it to slice the mix
Mixerboy
Boost 60hz (or there about's), cut all the mids heavily, boost around 6khz and pop on some transient designer type plug (cut sustain and boost attack)
Alternatively just trigger a low sin wav at 60hz, take the kick drum and hi-pass it up to 5 or 6khz and boost the volume on that, should sound like crap on it's own but work in a dense metal mix
Mixerboy
Also if you haven't sorted out the bass guitar and distortion guitars you can say bye-bye to the kick, you have to cut some space into those for the kick, high pass the guitars up to 100hz easy and cut a notch in the bass guitar around 60hz (or wherever the thump of the kick lies)
FruitarGeek
Wow there are a ton of suggestions here. Thanks. Now to try em all 8)
ryanguit
sorry, i misunderstood you. I thought you were mixing and mastering the track.
The overuse of limiters in music may be a dead horse, but almost all the stuff we listen to now has had huge compression applied mostly in the form of brick wall limiting (metal too obviously) which increases the volume of the track without letting it peak, but the trade-off is that the dynamics of the original material is lost to the same degree loudness is applied.
drag in the reference track (track you are using to compare) into your project. turn it down until it sounds the same volume approximately. don't look at meters. All mastering you do after mixing, requires remixing. But its a great ear training exercise to try hear and copy frequencies you feel are missing or too pronounced.
Use lots of reference tracks so that you don't become biased/influenced too much.
FruitarGeek
Yes, i definitely do use my reference track. I'm actually using Tool as my reference. One thing I've noticed with all these bands (not just metal) is that the overall mix sounds quite treble/high, as if the engineer just put a high shelf on the master bus and cut alot of the lows. Is there a reason for this?
Oh, I thought of another trick for the kick. How about if I put side-chain on the guitars and/or bass and trigger it to kick, that way everytime kick hits, it will compress the other instruments. Is that a decent method?
Manfred-Klose
the side chain method works nicely on certain genres of music.
setup up the kick, to let the bass guitar dip every time the kick hits and see how that works for the mix.
this also works nicely with vocals and electric guitars
FruitarGeek
Ok cool. Listen to the first 15 seconds of this song. Is this side-chain compression? Cause its quite heavy, but the kick certainly dominates
=
Manfred-Klose
yes, sound like they are sidechaining synths and other stuff as well, with a slow release settings, i created alot of space for the kick, but takes some of the other stuff away
but the actually kick is also compressed alot, which makes it even in the first.
look for some vids on sidechaining metal kicks on youtube
