Recording - stupid question!

Riaan-Combrink

I'm actually still shaking (from relief :-[). Just heard, for the first time ever, four minutes of music I recorded myself on my laptop!

I now have the dilemna that I've scanned the 254 page Reaper user guide, and I'm confronted with a really silly issue. This is way before I even come to adding effects, balancing tracks, etc.

For this to make any sense, I should probably start at the beginning.

Got hold of a silly little USB/RCA connector goody. I will still get a proper interface, but couldn't pass up buying something that claimed to record for just R 150,00. 8) Its a Behringer UCA200:
http://www.free-instrumentals.com/behringeruca200.html

So, in theory perfect for someone who already has a mixer. Everything into the mixer as per normal, and the mixer linked to the USB device via RCA cables. Read a lot of stuff on the net last night, and it appears almost no one could get this thing to work with anything. I did, Sherlock Holmes style, however find the correct ASIO driver.

Sped through to Bothners first thing this morning, and bought good quality gold-tipped RCAs (Proel Die-hard). Got home,and connected up. Installed ASIO-driver, and Reaper recognised it first time. ? Created three tracks, armed and recorded exactly the way I would play live - one channel for backtrack, one vox and one guitar - exactly levelled and mixed as I would do live, and allplayed in at once.

Lo and behold. Playback was cool. No stutters, sounds like a CD (well IMHO ?). Very happy.

Now the problem:

I wanted to add a track with some crunch guitar. Added the track, armed and pressed record. Realised I can't hear anything (ie the three tracks I already recorded) so as to know when to play on the 4th track.

Thing is, with my mixer I use the "Tape" inputs and outputs to link to UCA via RCA cables. In order to get a record-signal when recording, I have to leave the "tape to main" button on the mixer in the up position. If I don't, there's no signal visible on Reaper. To listen to what I've recorded, I have to activate/push in the "tape to main" button to get playback. While that button is pushed in, there's no signal to reaper -playback only.

When I thus want to add the fourth track (ie my first real multi-tracking as the other three were done at once), I have to release the "tape to main" button, which means I can't hear anything! I have a headphone jack on my mixer (but use a headphone with a PC type jack at the moment - will get an adaptor soon). Question is, will I then hear the playback through this headphone on the mixer even if tape to main is not active?

The newer version (UCA202) has a headphone jack on the USB device - which sort of makes sense to me. Point of this long post is I cannot plug a headphone into the mixer at the moment (lack of adaptor), and I'm dying to know: will I hear the other tracks in playback whilst I record the fourth track in record mode??

If this contains way too little information to make sense of it, please advise!!!! My momentum has dipped now, and needs to be restored!!! ?

Gearhead

Can you connect the PC input to channel 3/4? I have almost the same mixer you do, and I (used to) record from those sends. I hooked the PC output up to the stereo return so as to be able to mix it in.
Now presumably your aux sends and aux returns all are 6.3mm mono jack rather than RCA. Getting yourself some male jack / female rca plugs, cost very little (unless you again go for gold plated stuff). Buy 4 of those and you're momentum is restored ?

AlanRatcliffe

+1. You use two aux sends to send a mix to PC (you basically do an aux mix the way you would for monitors), and use the aux returns to input the signal from the PC back into the mains. This also means that there is no way you can accidentally set up a feedback loop.

If your aux sends are post-fade FX sends, you just set all the aux pots to unity gain and your faders will do the mixing. If they are pre-fade, you will have to do a mix on the aux pots.

You can also use two input channels for the PC output, which gives you EQ on the signal, but you can unintentionally set up a feedback loop if the aux sends are turned up (I also don't like using EQ on the PC signal, because it gives you a false impression of what you have recorded).

Riaan-Combrink

Thanks for the advice, guys.

Let me just check this - I'm not so hot on the mixer (more the "I've memorised where everything goes" as opposed to "I understand why"-type. :-[)

@Alan: I've got two 1/4" jack sockets on my mixer marked "aux sends 1 and 2". So I run a jack to RCA from these to the two RCA inputs at the back of the USB unit. I then run back from the two outputs at the back of the USB unit to the "stereo aux returns" jacks. Mine are marked "stereo", so do I just go into the left of both return 1 and 2 (and end up with mono if I understand it), or should I have a cable made up that can split left and right for stereo?

PS: I'm lucky on my mixer. I've got a "monitor out" on the board, and a dedicated fader just for the monitor, so I've never had to set up much for the monitor.

@Gearhead: When you say "channel 3/4", are you referring to the same aux sends Alan is?

I'm a little green on this, so thanks for the patience, guys. ?

AlanRatcliffe

Riaan C wrote (more the "I've memorised where everything goes" as opposed to "I understand why"-type. :-[)

I know just what you mean. LOL! The good news is the more you do, the more you read, the more it all starts making sense. The little bits you have picked up over time start stringing themselves together into a cohesive whole. It's like each time you reread a book like the Sound Reinforcement Handbook or Master Handbook of Acoustics, you end up understanding more.

I've got two 1/4" jack sockets on my mixer marked "aux sends 1 and 2". So I run a jack to RCA from these to the two RCA inputs at the back of the USB unit.

Exactly! It sometimes helps if you think of each aux as a separate mono output bus - it's an output like your main out, and the aux send pots are like the faders, mixing to that bus. Using two auxes together lets you use the two together like a stereo bus (but you have to balance the aux 1 and aux 2 to pan things). Bit I digress...

I then run back from the two outputs at the back of the USB unit to the "stereo aux returns" jacks. Mine are marked "stereo", so do I just go into the left of both return 1 and 2 (and end up with mono if I understand it), or should I have a cable made up that can split left and right for stereo?

Good question! You only have to use one of the two stereo pairs. Each stereo return is just like an extra pair of inputs on your mixer, panned hard left and hard right, so if you have a stereo source (like the signal from your interface) you just plug into one pair - left and right. (BTW - aux returns are also handy as extra line level inputs for CD players or synths).

PS: I'm lucky on my mixer. I've got a "monitor out" on the board, and a dedicated fader just for the monitor, so I've never had to set up much for the monitor.

Those are easy to use and come in handy for slaving extra amps and speakers too. The only downside to using them is you cannot control the monitor mix separate from the main mix, so if you want to hear more (or less) of one instrument or voice, you can't do it without affecting what the audience hears.

BTW - what mixer do you have again? You mentioned it was a Behringer before, but which model? I ask because if it is a four bus desk, then there's an easier/better way...

Riaan-Combrink

Alan Ratcliffe wrote BTW - what mixer do you have again? You mentioned it was a Behringer before, but which model? I ask because if it is a four bus desk, then there's an easier/better way...

Its this one, Alan.
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-Eurorack-UB1832FXPRO-Mixer?sku=631232

I can only see two aux sends and returns, so does that translate to two "buses" only? :-\

Riaan-Combrink

Alan, just noticed the following printed on mixer:

"18 input 3/2-bus mic/line mixer".

AlanRatcliffe

Damn - should have asked first - looks like you have a "sub" (which is another output bus). If you can switch your tracks to the sub bus, you can use that as your output to the PC. I'm just gonna look at the manual quickly...

Back now-now...

AlanRatcliffe

...sorry, got distracted by pretty wood.

The manual sucks, but it looks like you can plug the sub outs into the inputs of the interface. Then whenever you want to send a channel to the interface, you just activate the sub button on that channel. Easy... Bring the output of the PC back in via the aux returns as we mentioned earlier.

Riaan-Combrink

OK, I understand that! ?

Will report back once I've gotten the new cables. Thanks for all the effort ?

Riaan-Combrink

Riaan C wrote Will report back once I've gotten the new cables. Thanks for all the effort ?

Hey, Alan!

Went down to Marshall and got the cables. This is what I bought:
http://diehard.proelgroup.com/diehard/en/product.jsp?id_prod=11099296328400&id_scat=11103895625210&id_cat=11103895626290

Tried to comnnect up both ways that we discussed (subs and aux return and then aux send and return) but got no playback sound whatsoever. Using the sub-method, I checked that the source was sub and used the sub sliders to try to hear. When the send-return method I used the mains mode. In both modes I turned up almost every other button and slider to see if sound would come out, but got nothing.

Am I missing something you can perhaps think of?

Thanks.

Heath

is the default output of your pc set to the usb on the behringer and have you turned the aux return up on the mixer itself ???

AlanRatcliffe

^^ Agreed. Make sure by playing a pre-recorded piece of music or an mp3 on the PC. Also, if you have assignment switches on your aux return controls, you will have to enable the "To Mains" one.

Neps

ok.. let me take a stab at this..

guit into mixer, out of mixer via aux or subs into soundcard, from reaper into soundcard into mixer which should then output via your main outs. make sure that if you are using subs to outbut to your soundcard that they are only assigned to your subs and not also to your mains aswell.

the above is how i would run. excuse my response if you are already running in this way, im trying to work out in my head the flow diagram of diffrent ways to connect this baby up, and my protools is also acting up today..

To go into your mixer via the tape returns is the theoretical correct way, but if the tape return button is pushed in, your signal from your faders are bypassed. i learnt that lesson the hard way on a mackie 32*4. So to hear what you recorded the tape return option is right, but it is a bit of a workaround to monitor via it.

Riaan-Combrink

Tailon wrote is the default output of your pc set to the usb on the behringer?

Er, no :-[.

Thanks Tailon! ? I can hear the playback while I record now. New problem is what I record now (eg vox) is incredibly soft as opposed to what I got using the "tape" inserts. Doing a pre-record level check on the reaper channel assigned to vox, gave me a negligible signal no matter what (eg. turning gain on channel to max, turning slider all the way up, etc). Can I just check. The level of the power amp connected to my speaker and the position of the mains sliders are irrelevant to the recording level, right? That's just for playback / monitoring? Question, is the recording level of, eg, the vox channel (say channel 1 on my mixer) determined by the the position of the slider and gain button for channel 1, or by the virtual slider for the armed recording vox track on the Reaper virtual mixer, or perhaps both?? That may help me figure it out :-[

AlanRatcliffe

Er, no :-[.

LOl. It's always something simple! ? I've often done things like completely rewiring a studio only to find that I has a channel muted or something silly.

The level of the power amp connected to my speaker and the position of the mains sliders are irrelevant to the recording level, right? That's just for playback / monitoring?

That's right. Check the input levels on the virtual mixer belonging to your interface (or the Windows version). Inputs might be turned down there. Some other program may have changed level settings.

Neps

your poweramp level wont have anything to do with the recorded signal.. umm the mains out will if you going from a main out into reaper. if youre using a sub out, then the subs fader and the channel fader will determine the recorded level.. if reaper is like protools, the onscreen fader wont have anything to do with recording level, but you can adjust them to help with monitoring

Riaan-Combrink

Thanks for the advice, guys ?

Will only be back home later tonight, and will give it a go then ...

FatBoy

Riaan, try adding a screenshot of your Reaper window on here, maybe I can spot something...

Riaan-Combrink

Fritz Brand wrote Riaan, try adding a screenshot of your Reaper window on here, maybe I can spot something...

Hey Fritz,

Don't know if this will help. Track 13 is the one I'm trying to record on.
http://picasaweb.google.com/Synchronicity.RSA/RiaansGeneralUploads#5296093893713744802