[deleted]
=
Demonstrating the glorious tone of my new rig, as well as some nice improv ? :? ??? ? :-[
AlanRatcliffe
Great - thanks for the vid. Your chorus tones are very Holdsworth. ?
Do you find you get more definition from using two delays than you do from using a reverb?
arjunmenon
Shalom
Wow Ben...that chorus is Benbad-ass certified :woohoo:
Love the surreal depth you've got going on it.
Does that translate well in a live scenario without getting lost in the mix?
[deleted]
Thank you for the kind words guys ?
Yeah, Holdsworth and Johnson are probably my two biggest influences in terms of tone.
Funny you should mention the reverb issue Alan, I have always been a dedicated reverb junkie, love the stuff.
But in my current musical context's (dense, huge-sounding, high-volume power trio/fusion), reverb simply mushes, just does not maintain enough definition without clashing with other frequencies coming from the bass and cymbals.
It turns into a "fog"....
So, I find that by keeping the overall signal Dry, and then achieving ambiance via the delays, everything stays much cleaner and tighter.
Arjun, thank you bro? Yes, the idea is to have a very 3D sound, which is not easy to achieve in a band context.
But this setup works beautifully, translates very well at high volumes.
And best of all, I can tailor the board to work well with whatever amp is at the venue, very important.
Often there's a horrific compromise between a good clean tone and a good lead tone, especially with the default 'venue amp's, almost always a Marshall halfstack or a Fender Twin.
The Marshalls do nice lead tones, but rubbish cleans, and vice versa....
So with the graphic, I can always get a decent tone even in a compromised situation.....
Lethe
NIce dude! Very cool!
arjunmenon
Ben Bad wrote:
But in my current musical context's (dense, huge-sounding, high-volume power trio/fusion), reverb simply mushes, just does not maintain enough definition without clashing with other frequencies coming from the bass and cymbals.
It turns into a "fog"....
So, I find that by keeping the overall signal Dry, and then achieving ambiance via the delays, everything stays much cleaner and tighter.
Arjun, thank you bro? Yes, the idea is to have a very 3D sound, which is not easy to achieve in a band context.
But this setup works beautifully, translates very well at high volumes.
Thanks Ben.
I experience something similar at the church i play at. The FOH guy always asks me to turn off the reverb.
It'd be cool if you could share your delay settings.
I also dig that other vid you posted (i have seen that one before). The lead tones are very reminiscent of Eric Johnson and the clean sounds are epic (Holdsworth-ian?)
Cheers
EDIT : Sorry. Just wanted to add that your sense of harmony is eye-wateringly sublime *thumbs up*
[deleted]
Arjun, that is possibly the nicest compliment i have ever received! Thank you for the kind words.
I have a few pieces of advice that I can share with you regarding reverb.
First of all, you need to consider the room. A church is one of the WORST sonic environments imaginable, lots of hard surfaces, very high ceiling, lots of hard angles and corners....So, adding extra reverb into an already 'wet' environment is asking for trouble!
Next, you need to consider EQ. Not talking about the tonal EQ, talking about the Reverb EQ.
What kind of gear are you using?
Amp reverb, ie Spring ,(regardless of how much the amp cost) is NEVER a good idea in a band context, its mushy, poorly defined, the 'tails' are dirty, etc etc. And worst of all, it CANNOT BE EQUALIZED!
If you are using a multi FX, it should offer some basic level of reverb equalization, usually via HighPass and LowPass controls.
The LowPass controls the amount of High-End, and the HighPass controls the amount of Low-End.
What you want to do here is turn the HighPass filter UP all the way, usually to around 800hz.
That way, the bottom end of your guitar tone stays DRY.
Then you want to turn the LowPass all the way up as well, so that the 'verb is affecting the highest frequencies in your tone.
This combination will ensure the least amount of Mush.
Next, ask yourself this: What is my function within the band?
Are you playing melodies? Are you playing muted single notes? Are you strumming? Each of these requires a VERY different tone.
If you are strumming a lot, you want to keep your tone dry, without a lot of bottom end, otherwise you will create mush within the band.
If you are playing leads, you want more low end and lower mids, to make your lines stand out WITHOUT needing to crank the tops up too much.
I basically never strum, HATE IT, so I can afford to have a fairly wet, lush tone for chording, as I either pluck or rake my chords, always with a very light touch. If I was going to strum a lot, I would use a very different sound.
My delay settings are very simple, I have around 480 ms happening on the Nova, with a fair amount of modulation.
Then I have around 600 on the DD5. I keep the wet volumes on both units very low, just trying to create a nice 'halo' decay....
[deleted]
Another factor to consider;
Its VERY important to monitor your overall amount of Low End in a band context.
When you play on your own, its fine to have plenty of low end and tons of 'verb etc.
But in a band, your requirements are very different.
Its very important not to have excess gain happening below around 500hz, thats where it starts to "flub" and mush, ESPECIALLY at high volumes!
Its important to remember that the higher the volume, the LESS you need of ALL frequencies!
A really crisp, spanky, studio style clean will usually sound TERRIBLE at live volumes, very thin, harsh and biting.
Same goes for low end, the higher your volume, the less you need.
Its much better to go for a TALL sound than a FAT sound, something that 90% of players do not realize.
A tall sound will allow you to stand out from the band, whilst still fitting in nicely, and not creating a mushy bottom end or harsh top end.
Bearing all of that in mind, a good 10 band graphic (like the MXR) is one of the MOST important purchases you could possibly make.
Consider this:
You arrive at X Venue, you plug into their amp (or your own). The room has TONS of bottom end, maybe the guitar amp is sitting in a corner, which amplifies the low frequencies.
So you turn down the Bass knob on the amp. All of your lower mids (the MOST important part of the spectrum for getting a creamy lead sound) disappear. To counteract this, you turn up the Mid knob, but now the Upper mids and highs have become harsh. So you turn down the tops and mids. FINALLY, you have a nice smooth sound. The band starts up, and your tone DISAPPEARS! TRAINSMASH!!!!!! Scenario sound familiar? I battled with this for YEARS before I started to figure it out.
Now, if you have a graphic, you can get RID of the offending BOOM and grating upper mids (usually between 4khz and 6khz, leaving behind all of the important stuff, like 800hz (Eric Johnson frequency) and 3.1khz (Clarity frequency).
[deleted]
Hope that helps, if you have any other questions please feel free to ask anytime ?
AlanRatcliffe
All good stuff Ben. But a comment or two if I may:
Its VERY important to monitor your overall amount of Low End in a band context.
You can't stress this enough! I've often spoken of using the highpass filters on the desk on everything but bass guitar and kick as a matter of course. Not only does it "clear" the mix, but it frees up a huge amount of power and headroom for the useful frequencies in the mix.
I don't use the desk's highpass filters on my guitar - but that is a different context. On solo instrumental stuff I'm trying to fill the whole frequency range with just the guitar. But I have patches with highpass filters for the stuff where I'm playing accompaniment.
Its much better to go for a TALL sound than a FAT sound
I think I know what you mean, but it's an unusual way to state it. ? Basically you're saying cut your guitar down to a narrow band of frequencies in the midrange and boost those.
But again, it depends on context. That works well to get your guitar to stand out for solos, but sometimes you want to blend into the mix and leave space for a voice or other lead instrument.
So, adding extra reverb into an already 'wet' environment is asking for trouble!
Absolutely - but once again, there is the context thing. I always keep the low end stuff (specifically the kick and bass) as dry and tight as possible as well as being sparing on the lead voice or instrument. But the rest depends on where it belongs in the mix. If I want it to blend, I'm not beyond getting a bit swampy with the reverb. Also for a solo singer/guitarist type, there's often a lot more space to fill.
Amp reverb, ie Spring ,(regardless of how much the amp cost) is NEVER a good idea in a band context, its mushy, poorly defined, the 'tails' are dirty, etc etc.
Context. Certain types of music require it.
[deleted]
Alan, of couse, context is everything.
"On solo instrumental stuff I'm trying to fill the whole frequency range with just the guitar. But I have patches with highpass filters for the stuff where I'm playing accompaniment."
Of course, if you are playing alone, you can have low end which fills the room.
But add in a kick and bass, everything changes.
"I think I know what you mean, but it's an unusual way to state it. Basically you're saying cut your guitar down to a narrow band of frequencies in the midrange and boost those.
But again, it depends on context. That works well to get your guitar to stand out for solos, but sometimes you want to blend into the mix and leave space for a voice or other lead instrument."
Not at all, you misunderstand me.
I am talking about having the correct amount of each frequency for the room and ensemble.
Am not talking about having a narrow sound at all!
As you can hear, my tone is extremely broad and full-range.
This comes from years of recording and production experience.
The idea is to have ENOUGH of each frequency, depending on the venue, band, size of audience etc etc.
"Absolutely - but once again, there is the context thing. I always keep the low end stuff (specifically the kick and bass) as dry and tight as possible as well as being sparing on the lead voice or instrument. But the rest depends on where it belongs in the mix. If I want it to blend, I'm not beyond getting a bit swampy with the reverb. Also for a solo singer/guitarist type, there's often a lot more space to fill."
Well, I don't know about that....If you are playing blues, or Cowboy Junkie's kinda stuff, for sure, use a ton of verb.
But I always find that less is more with that stuff....
In the kind of context's I play in, the music is dense, my voicing's are dense, my lines are intricate....excess verb just clouds the issue!
This is another problem with spring reverb, the fact that you cannot maintain a DRY signal.
When you turn up the reverb knob on an amp, it effects the entire signal, wreaking havoc with note separation and definition.
I cannot think of a single context where spring sounds better than plate.
A good, subtle, tasteful plate or modulation 'verb, which can be blended with the dry signal, and eq'd to fit the mix....Spring 'verb always has that "marbles dropping into a tin can" vibe to it LOL!
arjunmenon
Thanks, Ben & Alan, for the information and the intelligent back & forth.
I'm going to try and digest this as best as i can.
Ben, i'm currently using a TC Hall of fame for reverb and an Eventide Timefactor for delay.
As you mentioned, church is a very difficult environment to play in...we've got a pianist, a keyboard player, bass player, 7 singers, a drummer and sometimes a sax player. This obviously makes my job difficult - I have to go from chugging a bit to spacey single notes to some quick 1 - 2 bar fills.
With the way my sound is set currently, my only issue is that i get swallowed up by the piano. I've tried to remedy it by going for drop 2 & 3 voicings.
My reverb is actually set quite low on the decay & level, and tone-wise its set fairly neutral - no clanginess, no boomy swelling bass/low mids etc.
The big issue i have is in getting my delay sound right. I've currently got a tape sound with a bit of saturation, wow & flutter and 1 delay set around the 325 - 350 ms area and the other around the 600 - 630 ms area. Maybe i should be tweaking the tone here before it hits the reverb?
I will give your settings a bash and see how that sounds.
Thanks very much.
Attila
Thanks guys
Again there is so much to be learnt just by watching and listening to fellow formulites, articulate aspects which are normally left to ones own and often skewed interpretation.
Agree with Arjun, We could do with more of this type of banter between folks in the know on setting up for a specific purpose
Ben ~ Ok I confess !!! initially I was going to make some dumb ass comment about the PINK glove :-[
peace
Attila
[deleted]
Arjun, with that kind of sophisticated gear, you should be able to make all the necessary tweaks depending on context.
I would not recommend using reverb in a church, and if you DO, nothing longer than 2.5 seconds, and not more than around 25% wet, even that is a bit much....
For the Chugging, I would recommend a completely dry tone.
Getting swallowed by keys is a HUGE problem, have been there MANY times myself.
The "tall and narrow" sound works very well here, keyboardists tend to overdo the bottom end in a big way, so if you are putting out a lot below 500, you are going to clash horribly.
You need to get some more gain happening at 3.1khz, and then again at 8khz.
This will help a LOT. Also, avoid using any saturated gain, as this WILL mush out on you.
I suggest buying yourself a 10 band graphic, it will change your life. Seriously!
Then you can boost the 800hz area, this will make a MASSIVE difference to your ability to hear yourself.
Attila, comment away ? The glove is purely practical, reduces friction, allowing me to make precise horizontal movements. Many of my lines would be almost impossible without it ?
Also keeps hand up to temperature in cold weather ?
[deleted]
Arjun, I would not recommend using a tape delay setting ANYWHERE outside of a studio!
Tape delay, by its very nature, is a very muddy sound.
You will be far better off using a nice, clean, modern delay sound, perhaps with a hint of modulation.
Check it out, let me know if there is any improvement....
arjunmenon
Thanks for the suggestions Ben
As for my drive sounds, i run my overdrive pedals with gain set pretty low. I haven't struggled with losing definition etc.
Getting killed by the piano is the only biggie i've got.
Will try those EQ suggestions as well with my current setup.
I will tweak the reverb and the delay (will try clean w/modulation). My reverb is currently at about 35% and decay is probably in the 3 - 3.25 sec region.
I will also seriously consider investing in a 10 band EQ pedal.
How much feedback do you have going on your delay (especially for those stunning clean sounds)?
Cheers
AlanRatcliffe
Ben Bad wrote:
The idea is to have ENOUGH of each frequency, depending on the venue, band, size of audience etc etc.
OK. Got you! The "tall" thing threw me - I've never heard it called that before.
If you are playing blues, or Cowboy Junkie's kinda stuff, for sure, use a ton of verb.
Exactly! CB Junkies, Chris Isaak, Shadows, Spaghetti Western, etc. (I end up doing all sorts I wouldn't do left to my own devices). And there are times when only a ton of spring reverb will do. Even with ambient pads, a spring can add a specific character and wash in a certain way that nothing else will. And some spring reverbs are better than others. Having said all that, I usually default to plate settings for my own stuff and my Twin never gets the reverb turned past 1.5. :-[
Spring 'verb always has that "marbles dropping into a tin can" vibe to it LOL!
The "clang"! ? Yeah - and the "splash" when you kick the amp. ?
As far as EQ goes - I far prefer using a couple of bands of parametric, which I find much easier to dial in for a variety of guitars, playing situations and rooms than a graphic. Boost, rotate until you find the good frequency you want to boost or the nasty you want to cut and then set the level to taste. Graphics are great when I have a bit more time to fiddle or for a preset. It's always surprised me that you don't get many parametric EQ pedals for guitar.
[deleted]
Arjun, in a large band situation, any reverb time over 2.5 is going to cause problems!
And if you are playing a church, even worse....
So I would definitely try to "dry the tone out" if I was you.
Yes, 3.1khz will probably be your biggest help in terms of cutting through the keys, its annoying I know! They take up SO MUCH SPACE!
Alan, hehe yeah Tall! I get that from 1000's of hours of production and mixing....
I learned that huge, fat mixes actually end up sounding small once you master them and play them next to other mixes....But when you go for a Tall mix, it sounds much bigger at high volume....And the same applies to guitar tone in my experience....
I'm not a fan of para-eq for several reasons, the main one being compromise.
It simply cannot give you total control! If there are 2 mid controls, gain and freq, you can only choose one frequency to adjust, and that usually means affecting the frequencies around it.
Whereas with the graphic, you only adjust one frequency at a time.
Its not THAT much of a TweakAche! I think after a while you get to know what the 'picture' should look like, you can kinda 'see' what your EQ should look like....
I completely agree that there should be more pedals for guitar, but what really AMAZES me is amp EQ! Still 3 bands???? I think its obscene that you can fork out 20k for a Fender or Boogie etc, and still get the same old useless 3 band EQ!
Parametric mid controls should be the MINIMUM!
I am currently having a custom amp built to my specs, 60 watts, tube preamp, solid state power amp, built in 10 band graphic! Going to be completely next level!!!!
The combination of that, my forthcoming BFOC BB8x (8 strings, 5 piece neck through body, EMG's on rails, chambered body), and the current pedalboard....
Next level!!!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[deleted]
Arjun, I have my decay amounts set to around 5 repeats on each pedal.
And the amount is LOW, the Nova's effect level is about 8 out of 100....
But again, bear in mind that I'm going for that really broad, lush tone, I want a nice wash.
If I was playing in a pop context, or in a huge band, I would dry everything out a lot, except for solo's....
