Rant...

warrenpridgeon · 2013-05-20T16:58:32+00:00

Right ... I know they say we should support our local music shops... but man... I REALLY REALLY battle to do that... I understand we pay hectic import duties and taxes and stuff... but REALLY?!?! Now... music doesn't earn me money... and I am frugal with my cash as a general rule. Couple years back I had invested in a tube amp and had a Epiphone Les Paul that I was running through a GT8 into the DSL 401... Yes I know... cardinal sin of note (I am wiser now). So I thought... mmm I need a delay pedal as all I REALLY used on the GT8 was delay and MAYBE chorus... so I shopped around and researched... came down to the boss giga delay vs tc electronic nova delay... Checked prices online... I could get them off ebay for almost the same price... So I went to the one store to enquire about pricing and stock... they didn't have and the guy tried to convince my to by the G-System or something like that which has a "similar" delay in... but also includes distortions etc. So... being the spendthrift I am I left (not wanting to spend multiple times more than I had budgeted). I then headed to another music store... Asking the price I was quite shocked at the answer I received... R4500 before discount... I later bought it for +-R1800 (Inlcuding shipping) off ebay... New...sealed... Had to pay R120+- duties when it arrived. A couple years later a buddy asked me the difference between the nova delay and the DD20 and was shocked at the price I paid as the same music shop had quoted R4495 with no discount nad including discount R3390. Next story... The footswitch in my Radial Trimode tonebone started failing. So I got hold of the shop and asked if they had any or could get... It just so happened that they had a fried pedal that they could "harvest" the switches for me... R120 each... and they would not charge me labour... I asked them why it was so pricey when the official distributor of Radial pedals and they had quoted me R100 ex vat for a NEW one... The guy from the shop obviously misunderstood me or something and told me fine he will order one off allparts, but then it will cost me closer to R200... I told him to keep it as I was not paying more for a salvaged spare than a brand new one from the supplier... I ordered 2 switches off ebay for R65 together... Even if I replace them once a year it's not the end of the world as the Radial ones are (according to the internet so it must be true ? ) not very reliable. That's my rant for the day.

Mixerboy

chris77 wrote a business model that has morphed into a self devouring monster.

This is the main problem, it is what it is, and there is stiff competition these days, it's like blacksmiths complaining that no one is coming to have their horse shoe'd because they've all got them new fangled car thingy's.

[/quote]Somewhere, sooner or later, something has to give.[/quote]

Print your own guitars from home: http://cubify.com/blog/a-3d-printed-acoustic-guitar/

(IF and when this becomes a major technology it'll most likely do the same to the online stores that the online stores are doing to the physical stores........"a self devouring monster")

Mixerboy

Donovan Banks wrote There's an interesting study that can help alleviate this. Van Westendorp's Price sensitivity meter looks at what people are willing to pay and you end up with a price range that the majority of your market are willing to pay.

I'm curious to see what we would consider a fair price for any guitar related item. I can set up a quick survey for any piece of gear we like and you chaps answer the 4 questions and I'll tabulate the results. I'm sure the distributors and stores would be keen to see the result?

Let's pick an American Standard Stratocaster.

You fella's keen? I could use the practice.

I'm game, seems like a good idea actually.

warrenpridgeon

chris77 wrote Tell you what, I am glad I'm not an instument retailer in our country.

Many moons ago a business model was established whereby stores began giving discounts to loyal and/or high profile customers and even once off customers like churches, groups, schools etc. buying high value items and systems. Now this was way before my time, but I imagine it worked well back then. It would have been a great incentive and honour and something to feel proud about, knowing that you are getting better prices than the average Joes, and you would have cherished and developed your relationship with "your" store. The stores realised this and pretty soon the loyalty discount was not so rare anymore. Loyalty means repeat business, which is a must if you are competing in a specialised sector. Offering discount became a great way of attaining that loyalty.
Because they were however now selling some items for less, they had to compensate their loss of profit by inflating prices just a tad more to make up for it. This worked well enough for a while, and as the practise of negotiating a better than marked price became more and more common, the sticker prices crept further and further up to compensate the increase in discounts given to customers. This would have worked out as well if it wasn't for two things:

1 - Sticker price vs Discount price became a bit of an open secret, known to everybody except the new players starting out. This meant that new players - mostly youngsters and their folks - were for all intents and purposes now subsidising the discount system at a stage of their lives when most of them weren't able to afford it. Instead of buying better gear for less, they were paying top dollar sticker prices for gear that wasn't really worth it. Some of them persevered however and one day they too became privy to the glory and mystery which is the discount system. They rejoiced at this great revelation, but it kept nagging at them in the back of their heads that they could have saved so, so much money and had way better gear than they had a lot earlier if they were informed straight up of the system and not kept in the dark for so long. This lead to a lot of them feeling kinda resentful and the perception that music stores rip of their customers by charging too much started to take hold. Which is brings us to the next point.

2 - Players no longer trusted the pricing of stores and because it bore fruit for them, had become used to the concept of bartering and negotiationg for the best price possible, always. No longer were they bound by loyalty, but by where can I get my gear for the cheapest price possible, hopping from one store to the next looking for the best price available. And then, like a gift from the angels, the internet made that cheapest price even cheaper. The players no longer had to work hard for their discounts, they no longer had to earn it by loyalty or by spending extravagant amounts to qualify. It was all there, at the click of a button and requiring just a little bit of tech savvy and a passable comprehension of economics. The industry's system of flexible pricing had now bred a section of it's market to whom loyalty meant nothing and the only criteria is the bottom line. And worst of all is that the uninformed could now directly compare prices as well. Just look it up on the internet, go to your local store and see how much it costs there and leave in silence - amazed by how much more the sticker price is than the price on the net.

So yeah. I'm glad I'm not an instrument retailer. You have to fight the ussual battles like inflation, import costs, staff issues, high overheads etc, but you are also part of an industry which is following a business model that has morphed into a self devouring monster. Somewhere, sooner or later, something has to give.

Definitely! There are smaller stores that still have a smaller difference between the sticker and discount price... which USED to be about loyalty but now is not really any more... look at banks and finance houses... the same kind of thing applies... you used to bank with one bank for 20 years and you could sit down and negotiate for a decent rate because you were a loyal customer... these days it's all formulas... guy from work is buying a place... he got a worse rate from his own bank than his girlfriend who does not bank with his bank. Previous generations of people would work for a company for years and years... being loyal and being rewarded for that... these days it's not uncommon to work at a place for a year or two... it's all about the benjamins (dibas) these days.

On a side note... this rant wasn't so much about the sticker price vs real price as what it was about me feeling that things are overpriced in SA. It's not just guitar gear... even our OWN PETROL is cheaper over the border than at the pumps (even at the coast) here.

warrenpridgeon

Donovan Banks wrote There's an interesting study that can help alleviate this. Van Westendorp's Price sensitivity meter looks at what people are willing to pay and you end up with a price range that the majority of your market are willing to pay.

I'm curious to see what we would consider a fair price for any guitar related item. I can set up a quick survey for any piece of gear we like and you chaps answer the 4 questions and I'll tabulate the results. I'm sure the distributors and stores would be keen to see the result?

Let's pick an American Standard Stratocaster.

You fella's keen? I could use the practice.

-R2500 ... not my style... so if you paid me a couple grand I might take it ?
Also...I am not sure what the market value is for that piece of kit.

DonovanB

warrenpridgeon wrote -R2500 ... not my style... so if you paid me a couple grand I might take it ?
Also...I am not sure what the market value is for that piece of kit.

Wait for the questions... ? I'll step out the way so you can get flamed for your strat-o-hatred...

warrenpridgeon

Donovan Banks wrote
warrenpridgeon wrote -R2500 ... not my style... so if you paid me a couple grand I might take it ?
Also...I am not sure what the market value is for that piece of kit.

Wait for the questions... ? I'll step out the way so you can get flamed for your strat-o-hatred...

Lol... don't read what I am not saying. Strats have their place for sure... currently that's not in my hands... I might consider it sometime... I might head more towards PRS than Strat tho.
I like my Epi LP... although LP is seen by some as "rock and roll", some greats played strats... others flying v's etc.

Hammeron

Ranting rules, ranting dominates!!

kapepper

Staff salaries in South Africa, that should be a heavy burden for a store in SA ? ? ? ? ? LOL

Well, something positive about SA stores compared with some big stores I know in Europe

At least the stores I know in SA let you play the gear without a sales person standing next to you the whole time.... i have played extremely expensive gear without anybody getting nervous, they would just let me do my thing (this includes that 60 les paul in music connection)... that would be a big NO GO in Europe (at least in the stores i know)

Prices are very expensive, but that is also the same in Europe. Anything you buy know in a store is expensive, thats just why i dont buy "in a store" not here, not in europe not in the US

I only buy second hand ?)

vic

kapepper wrote Staff salaries in South Africa, that should be a heavy burden for a store in SA ? ? ? ? ? LOL

Well, something positive about SA stores compared with some big stores I know in Europe

At least the stores I know in SA let you play the gear without a sales person standing next to you the whole time.... i have played extremely expensive gear without anybody getting nervous, they would just let me do my thing (this includes that 60 les paul in music connection)... that would be a big NO GO in Europe (at least in the stores i know)

Prices are very expensive, but that is also the same in Europe. Anything you buy know in a store is expensive, thats just why i dont buy "in a store" not here, not in europe not in the US

I only buy second hand ?)

Why is it that some people buy "new" ? Is it because some stores offer credit or accept credit cards (iow...one still buys on credit) or, you pay cash at discounted prices and have the peace of mind of a warranty ?

studmissile

Alan Ratcliffe wrote It's worth noting that the biggest US store, which operates in the way some would have local stores operate - is in deep, deep, sh** at the moment. They also owe so much to Fender, that if they go down, they could conceivably bring Fender down with them (who are also struggling ATM) - or at least cause a major restructure. In fact, you can probably blame the whole Japanese Jackson closing thing on them.

Just sayin'...

See what you saying, disturbing....! Maybe best if fender sells direct?

http://crushmediastudios.com/insights/music-retail-on-the-auction-block/

AlanRatcliffe

studmissile wrote Maybe best if fender sells direct?

No. That's a model that may work for Carvin and other small companies, but it's in no way a model that will work for an iconic brand that is sold in large numbers worldwide. They need distributors.

Even if GC/MF does the usual corporate thing of paying all the directors huge bonuses and then declaring bankruptcy, and defaults completely on the $15M (and growing) owed to Fender, there is not much chance Fender will collapse altogether, but they will likely have to fall back back and regroup.

I could see them scaling back on their huge variety of production line guitars (132 different Strats and 97 different Teles alone! Without Squier, Gretsch, Guild, Jackson, etc.), and killing off more of the brands they got when they acquired Kaman. But seriously, who knows what they will do in the eventuality? Let's just hope that they don't do a Gibson and scale back US production to a small number of like-it-or-lump-it models at exorbitant prices and let the Mexican and Asian factories pick up the slack.

vic

Alan Ratcliffe wrote
studmissile wrote Maybe best if fender sells direct?
No. That's a model that may work for Carvin and other small companies, but it's in no way a model that will work for an iconic brand that is sold in large numbers worldwide. They need distributors.

Even if GC/MF does the usual corporate thing of paying all the directors huge bonuses and then declaring bankruptcy, and defaults completely on the $15M (and growing) owed to Fender, there is not much chance Fender will collapse altogether, but they will likely have to fall back back and regroup.

I could see them scaling back on their huge variety of production line guitars (132 different Strats and 97 different Teles alone! Without Squier, Gretsch, Guild, Jackson, etc.), and killing off more of the brands they got when they acquired Kaman. But seriously, who knows what they will do in the eventuality? Let's just hope that they don't do a Gibson and scale back US production to a small number of like-it-or-lump-it models at exorbitant prices and let the Mexican and Asian factories pick up the slack.

I believe too many guitars and too many different models within a brand are produced. The supply outstrips the demand (I guess). Just check any big local store....hundreds of axes on the walls....all shapes and sizes...solids and acoustics...What is the turn around time on all these instruments? Some hang there for years....? or so it seems. And then you have the second hand market competing with these....check Gumtree and other sites...100's of guitars. No wonder there's a "crisis".

Keira-WitherKay

Thing i have issues with is ..... If you today .... This hour phone and want a usa gibson les paul you will pay the usa price plus an understandable mark up .... For the import ect after your "disputed in store discount" but try buy a usa fender and you paying a lot more of an increase to the usa price ...... Than gibson ....

They both imported from the same place to the same store and one is radically out of wack to the other ....

And truth be told , if you buy from reputed online stores , they do offer a return policy .... And also apart from setup ... How many times have you heard of a fender or gibson being returned cos of factory fault ? As i said it may need a good setup but little else goes wrong with top end usa guitars and on that off chance it does you use the return policy ....

So that in mind and in this current economy .... And with online purchase easier and quicker than ever before .....prices will have to become more competitive or the next generation will just buy online and stores will fade away but will more than likely morph into online stores in time

Tokai-SA

Keira WitherKay wrote Thing i have issues with is ..... If you today .... This hour phone and want a usa gibson les paul you will pay the usa price plus an understandable mark up .... For the import ect after your "disputed in store discount" but try buy a usa fender and you paying a lot more of an increase to the usa price ...... Than gibson ....

They both imported from the same place to the same store and one is radically out of wack to the other ....

And truth be told , if you buy from reputed online stores , they do offer a return policy .... And also apart from setup ... How many times have you heard of a fender or gibson being returned cos of factory fault ? As i said it may need a good setup but little else goes wrong with top end usa guitars and on that off chance it does you use the return policy ....

So that in mind and in this current economy .... And with online purchase easier and quicker than ever before .....prices will have to become more competitive or the next generation will just buy online and stores will fade away but will more than likely morph into online stores in time

So much wrong here. ?

There is no Gibson distributor in SAfrica, only an "Official" dealer, so OBVIOUSLY they can be sold at lower prices than a Fender which does have a distributor in SAfrica.
Would you like Fender not to distribute in SAfrica, just have one or two "Official" stores...would you like every other guitar brand not to distribute to music stores all over SAfrica, should they all sell 'privately'...can you imagine the RANTS that would cause?

By "top end" made in the USA guitars, are you referring to Tom Anderson, Suhr, Tyler, D'Pergo?

How would you know how many made in USA guitars have factory faults, have you done some kind of a countrywide or worldwide survey on this?
I can assure you that "mass produced top end" made in the USA guitars have factory faults that you choose to ignore because you're such a huge made in the USA fan...go ask your guitar tech, JD, he'll tell you.

Have a wonderful day, Keira. ?

AlanRatcliffe

Keira WitherKay wrote How many times have you heard of a fender or gibson being returned cos of factory fault ?

Speaking as a former repairperson:

Every company has returns. Some less than others, sure, but they all have their moments and it's not always in line with how prestigious or how expensive they are either.

'Nuff said....

Keira-WitherKay

Tokai SA wrote
Keira WitherKay wrote Thing i have issues with is ..... If you today .... This hour phone and want a usa gibson les paul you will pay the usa price plus an understandable mark up .... For the import ect after your "disputed in store discount" but try buy a usa fender and you paying a lot more of an increase to the usa price ...... Than gibson ....

They both imported from the same place to the same store and one is radically out of wack to the other ....

And truth be told , if you buy from reputed online stores , they do offer a return policy .... And also apart from setup ... How many times have you heard of a fender or gibson being returned cos of factory fault ? As i said it may need a good setup but little else goes wrong with top end usa guitars and on that off chance it does you use the return policy ....

So that in mind and in this current economy .... And with online purchase easier and quicker than ever before .....prices will have to become more competitive or the next generation will just buy online and stores will fade away but will more than likely morph into online stores in time
So much wrong here. ?

There is no Gibson distributor in SAfrica, only an "Official" dealer, so OBVIOUSLY they can be sold at lower prices than a Fender which does have a distributor in SAfrica.
Would you like Fender not to distribute in SAfrica, just have one or two "Official" stores...would you like every other guitar brand not to distribute to music stores all over SAfrica, should they all sell 'privately'...can you imagine the RANTS that would cause?

By "top end" made in the USA guitars, are you referring to Tom Anderson, Suhr, Tyler, D'Pergo?

How would you know how many made in USA guitars have factory faults, have you done some kind of a countrywide or worldwide survey on this?
I can assure you that "mass produced top end" made in the USA guitars have factory faults that you choose to ignore because you're such a huge made in the USA fan...go ask your guitar tech, JD, he'll tell you.

Have a wonderful day, Keira. ?

? well i must admit i never realised that because our gibson supplier is just an outlet or dealer , and that means i pay close to international rates for my gibsons then for sure, lets do the same with fender , if it means i pay lower amounts on fenders i buy .... I'll gladly have one fender shop in a region ....

And that to me and many others in the biz ( and its often discussed) is much more beneficial , cos if i look at gibson here , a huge range is carried , and you can find all the gibson spares available over the counter including all the pups at comparative prices ...and warranty's are given .. So what more does the distributor offer me as the end user . ..... That gibson does not

but my point was really that internet buying will become more common .....

Above is the serious question .....

Now on a light hearted note .....please don't pass out or go into shock , but as you said i am unashamably a huge fan of usa made instruments ... But my main jazz guitar is "japanese made" at the moment .... A stunning vintage late 60's yamaha thinline archtop ... Its 100% stock and is mint ..... Ronnie from allbang and strummit sourced it for me ...... So there you go ? i'm not that close minded to non usa brands as you think.....

Anyway only time will tell if the internet stores will be an alternative if pricing remains as it is...... So lets have this conversation again in 5 years and see how trends have shifted ?

a

Sean

Keira WitherKay wrote
Anyway only time will tell if the internet stores will be an alternative if pricing remains as it is...... So lets have this conversation again in 5 years and see how trends have shifted ?

A trend I'll be curious about is whether you'll have completed the circle (based on this latest confession about your Japanese acquisition) ...I distinctly recall many of your early posts being along the lines of "Brand-is-blah-blah, play-it, if-it-sounds-good-it's-good" ? ?

Malkav

I'm just gonna take a moment to chime in and say after the hundreds of guitars I've played (and I mean literally hundreds as I've worked in music stores since I was about 16) one thing I will always stand by is that 9/10 the Japanese guitars I've tried have been far better built than their USA competition, regardless of brand, sure the resale value will never be as high but slowly I'm seeing a lot of old Japanese guitars starting to be considered collectors items and fetching higher prices than they originally sold for - When it comes to quality country of origin has little to nothing to do with it, I'm sure if you gave a master luthier (with a good rep) from any country (and yes they probably exist in most countries) the right materials to use they would build a guitar that is easily comparable to any custom shop instrument from any of the big name brand's custom shops.

warrenpridgeon

Chad Adam Browne wrote I'm just gonna take a moment to chime in and say after the hundreds of guitars I've played (and I mean literally hundreds as I've worked in music stores since I was about 16) one thing I will always stand by is that 9/10 the Japanese guitars I've tried have been far better built than their USA competition, regardless of brand, sure the resale value will never be as high but slowly I'm seeing a lot of old Japanese guitars starting to be considered collectors items and fetching higher prices than they originally sold for - When it comes to quality country of origin has little to nothing to do with it, I'm sure if you gave a master luthier (with a good rep) from any country (and yes they probably exist in most countries) the right materials to use they would build a guitar that is easily comparable to any custom shop instrument from any of the big name brand's custom shops.

How many guitars get made in Japan vs how many are made in USA? Could just be sheer statistics dictating the outcome... lol

studmissile

warrenpridgeon wrote
Chad Adam Browne wrote I'm just gonna take a moment to chime in and say after the hundreds of guitars I've played (and I mean literally hundreds as I've worked in music stores since I was about 16) one thing I will always stand by is that 9/10 the Japanese guitars I've tried have been far better built than their USA competition, regardless of brand, sure the resale value will never be as high but slowly I'm seeing a lot of old Japanese guitars starting to be considered collectors items and fetching higher prices than they originally sold for - When it comes to quality country of origin has little to nothing to do with it, I'm sure if you gave a master luthier (with a good rep) from any country (and yes they probably exist in most countries) the right materials to use they would build a guitar that is easily comparable to any custom shop instrument from any of the big name brand's custom shops.
How many guitars get made in Japan vs how many are made in USA? Could just be sheer statistics dictating the outcome... lol

Yeah but we (South Africa) don't seem to get so many Japanese guitars, there are far more Mexican and USA models around.

« Previous Page Next Page »