ESP Standard series being dropped

Ghost93

Has anyone been following the ESP announcements recently with regard to dropping the ESP standard series range in 2014 and replacing it with a new brand name called E II? The only guitars that will carry the ESP logo on the headstock will be custom shop.
I love ESP guitars and currently own 2 x standard series eclipses. What will happen to the 2nd value of these guitars when this happen?
Id love to get some opinions here.

AlanRatcliffe

I don't think it'll make a difference either way - especially locally, where they are relatively unknown. ESP aren't big in the general playing public's eye and the real fans will make the distinction between pre and post 2014 ESPs (as they probably do between Standards and Custom Shop models now).

I see that some Standard series will fall under "LTD Elite" or some such, so I suspect it's probably as much to do with pushing up the LTDs as it is making the CS models more exclusive.

Ghost93

Hi Alan

Thanks for the reply. I guess what you are saying is exactly the double whammy im trying to figure out.

They pushing up the pricing of the ltd and position it as an equal to an esp standard series, while ltd has always been seen a the budget range - this in my mind devalues the current standard series?

On the other end guitars that will carry the esp name will come out of custom shop only in future. This could either make the esp more valuable as you wont get guits with the esp naming except for the second hand market?

But I guess as you said, esp is not well known locally - yet ? so probably wont make any difference. Just concerned as I own 2 of them and they didnt come cheap.

Also just battling to understand why the company would do something like this.

Cleric

So what you're saying is that if I want an Eclipse II with ESP on the head-stock I better buy one in the next year and a half? Any excuse for a new axe!

ZarK

Stop worrying... ? You've got two ESP's... ? Fantastic guitars. Based on first-hand experience, I rate them higher than many of the better known high-end brands.

AlanRatcliffe

Ghost93 wrote: On the other end guitars that will carry the esp name will come out of custom shop only in future. This could either make the esp more valuable as you wont get guits with the esp naming except for the second hand market?

If, in future, the name is only used for top quality (and for most, unattainable) guitars. The older, production line instruments under the same name will benefit. The danger lies in them letting the ESP brand dwindle and die, at which point they become another Hamer - some great guitars that few have heard of.

But I guess as you said, esp is not well known locally - yet ?

How long will it take them then? ? They've been around since the mid - '80s and had had their heyday alongside brands like Jackson and Hamer. They had an excellent rep from the start, but I think maybe they put too many eggs in the Superstrat basket, where they, like everyone else, are now up against Ibanez (and still Jackson, who have the might of the big F behind them). The ground they had on Fender in the '80s (when they, Tokai and Fernandes were building better Strats than Fender) has now gone and now Fender has their house in order, ESP will never make that back. Plus on the high end they are up against the same competition Fender CS is - Suhr, Pensa and the like.

Also just battling to understand why the company would do something like this.

Like many, they are struggling to find a place in the market now that higher end stuff does not move as well and the midrange is so hotly contested and being targeted by the bigger companies (both high and low end). I would guess they have done better with the LTD range in recent years than they have with the ESPs, and they are refocusing on the area that is making them the most money.

Ghost93

Cleric wrote: So what you're saying is that if I want an Eclipse II with ESP on the head-stock I better buy one in the next year and a half? Any excuse for a new axe!

Yip- thats my understanding. After this your only options would be is to order from ESP custom shop (which would probably cost you nothing less than R30k) or look at second hand market.

ZarK wrote: Stop worrying... ? You've got two ESP's... ? Fantastic guitars. Based on first-hand experience, I rate them higher than many of the better known high-end brands.

Hehehehe... thanks Zark. I love my esp' ?. Want to buy more of them, but just trying to foresee and get some insight on the matter and how this thing is going to pan out.

Ghost93

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
Ghost93 wrote: On the other end guitars that will carry the esp name will come out of custom shop only in future. This could either make the esp more valuable as you wont get guits with the esp naming except for the second hand market?
If, in future, the name is only used for top quality (and for most, unattainable) guitars. The older, production line instruments under the same name will benefit. The danger lies in them letting the ESP brand dwindle and die, at which point they become another Hamer - some great guitars that few have heard of.

But I guess as you said, esp is not well known locally - yet ?
How long will it take them then? ? They've been around since the mid - '80s and had had their heyday alongside brands like Jackson and Hamer. They had an excellent rep from the start, but I think maybe they put too many eggs in the Superstrat basket, where they, like everyone else, are now up against Ibanez (and still Jackson, who have the might of the big F behind them). The ground they had on Fender in the '80s (when they, Tokai and Fernandes were building better Strats than Fender) has now gone and now Fender has their house in order, ESP will never make that back. Plus on the high end they are up against the same competition Fender CS is - Suhr, Pensa and the like.

Also just battling to understand why the company would do something like this.
Like many, they are struggling to find a place in the market now that higher end stuff does not move as well and the midrange is so hotly contested and being targeted by the bigger companies (both high and low end). I would guess they have done better with the LTD range in recent years than they have with the ESPs, and they are refocusing on the area that is making them the most money.

Thanks Alan, some good insight here, I think it is a risky move for ESP. There LTD range is definitely their bread and butter and that I can appreciate. I THINK this might blow up in their faces. ESP should always be seen as that aspirational brand for the ltd brand. Its like what fender is to squier and Gibson to Epiphone. Now they are just taking that aspiration out of it by making the guitars way to expense for the consumer to afford. Dont know either if they will find that aspiration the the new E II brand either.

What they are doing now - and lets use Fender as an example in the same scenario - should Fender have done this it would be like taking the Squier brand, slap it on a guitar, market to the consumer that its made in the USA and charge +-R20k for it. ??? and if you want to own a fender you can only custom order one at a ridiculous price? Dont know about anyone here but I wont pay R20k for a squier ? even if it was made in the USA.

I dont foresee them competing in the mid to high end guitar market going this route.

Anyway - I GUESS IT IS WHAT IT IS, RIGHT?

Charlie4

I have to say this whole new business model is still very hazy to me. If they are as thorough with their business plan as they are with making guitars then I doubt that we'll really have anything to worry about.

@Alan. ESP's, the standard ones, come in at about $1500-$2000. Suhr, Pensa, Fender CS etc. is in a whole different price range imo, $3000+. I've never played an ESP custom but I can vouch for my Horizon - it kicks some serious ass, certainly up there with those 3k guitars. Whatever happens, I'm glad I snapped one up when I had the chance. 8)

BMU

Interesting. Not an ESP fan, but interesting. I think it'll clarify their branding. But what confuses me is what advantage the company sees in this.

@ Alan:

Like many, they are struggling to find a place in the market now that higher end stuff does not move as well and the midrange is so hotly contested and being targeted by the bigger companies (both high and low end).

But what they're doing doesn't make sense if this were true. It's as if they think the HIGH end is their main business, and they want to prevent that brand from being diluted. And LTD is a good business too, so they're not messing with that. On the low end, LTD remains LTD. (More or less, ceterus paribus, as I understand it, etc.)

But they're really diminishing the prestige, bragging rights etc of owning a Standard series. Those are second class citizens from now on. They've even put a "II" in the new branding lest anybody forget that. It's almost like they're trying to be really honest and reduce confusion. To their own detriment. Weird.

@Ghost:

They pushing up the pricing of the ltd and position it as an equal to an esp standard series

But they're not doing this. Not according to http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/musikmesse-2013-big-changes-ahead-for-esp-573846

"ESP Guitars is planning a major rebranding exercise in 2014. The company will be bringing its existing Standard series to a close, and calling the new guitars E-II. The new branding also brings with it approximately a 20 per cent drop in suggested retail pricing across the range, which retains - and builds on - the existing model line."

@Charlie:

@Alan. ESP's, the standard ones, come in at about $1500-$2000.

I don't think so:
Eclipse II Std series list price $3000. http://www.guitarcenter.com/ESP-Standard-Series-Eclipse-II-106897580-i1149019.gc
Suhr Modern Aqua Blue Burst $3,399.00 http://www.mattsmusic.com/Suhr-cat.html

As to the original question, it's gotta be good for the 2nd hand value of "pre E-II" ESP standard series. Or at least neutral, since fans will make the distinction as pointed out. But not detrimental, I can't see why.

So the main damage is to ESP themselves, this can't be good for the market share of the 2nd class, previous ESP Std series. As Alan said already:

The danger lies in them letting the ESP brand dwindle and die

Ghost93

Mmmmmm..... you know what BMU. Youre right. The E II range actually replaces the standard series. So, if you really really think about it the current esp standard series second hand value is screwed. As per your below post - the new branding comes with a 20% price reduction and they introducing a new ltd elite range at probably $300 to $400 dollars less than the standard series as well. Not good as the ltd elite is also made in japan. I think ESP is shafting all current ESP owners with a cactus. Paid a lot of money to own A ESP and Unfortunately as is they dont hold their value well. Now that value decreases potentially even further.
Look, this doesnt take away from the fact that they are the most amazing guitars in my mind.
BMU - the link you posted confirms the ESP standard price is below $2000 ?

BMU

BMU - the link you posted confirms the ESP standard price is below $2000

List price. $3000. Both of those are list price. Not discounted price. Apples to apples.

singemonkey

I reckon the reputation of their custom-shop instruments had been a bit watered-down in recent years. Also it was less of a show-off if you bought a $4,000 custom shop ESP but people couldn't tell it from their regular production models. As people have said, reestablishing that brand for their premo top-notch original guitars will ultimately raise the value of production models with the same logo.

Bear in mind, ESP has a far bigger range of brands than most South Africans are aware of. They make top-notch clones of classic electrics under "Navigator." These are the most elite clones of Gibson and Fender guitars out there and come in at Gibson Custom-shop prices. They have Edwards, that makes a range of mid-priced guitars from ESP standard and artist models to clones. They have Grassroots that makes budget instruments. And of course they have Ltd.

So ESP do not work on the American model, and brand shifting like this is commonplace among Japanese guitar companies.

Charlie4

BMU wrote:
BMU - the link you posted confirms the ESP standard price is below $2000
List price. $3000. Both of those are list price. Not discounted price. Apples to apples.

ESP Eclipse: +- $1800

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/esp-standard-series-eclipse-ii
http://www.sweetwater.com/c590--ESP--Solidbody_Guitars/popular/params=eyJkaW1lbnNpb24iOnsiQnJhbmQiOlsiNDI5NDk2NTI2MCJdLCJQcmljZSBSYW5nZSI6WyIxMDAwMDExIl19fQ
http://www.mattsmusic.com/ECLIPSEII-prod.html List Price: $2832

Edit:

Suhr Modern Aqua Blue Burst: Not one under $3200

http://wildwestguitars.com/Suhr/Electric-Guitars/dis-prod_1364_standard.html
http://willcuttguitars.com/suhr-guitars/suhr-g-modern-aqua-blue-burst
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Suhr-Modern-Aqua-Blue-Burst-Electric-Guitar-/321113192971
http://www.rocketmusic.net/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=3811
http://andysguitars.com/shopping/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_26&products_id=1790&zenid=f38ad3b0bf0f68478baa9b81362304dc
http://www.mattsmusic.com/16950-prod.html List Price: $5100

You might have well could have used the GIBSON website overinflated prices (MSRP).

BMU

Not to turn this into a prolonged argument, I'm now genuinely curious - so what does an ESP Standard cost here. Is it not up in the R30k bracket? This place says so, but maybe that's not a representative source for actual shopfloor prices:
http://www.wantitall.co.za/Instruments-Music/ESP-Standard-Eclipse-II-Electric-Guitar-with-Case-Snow-White__B00113OXJO

I know the $3000 JEM sells for around R30k, or a bit more. Bottom line, not so sure the deep US 'street' price discounts apply outside the US, and especially not here. (Small market, far away etc) Or maybe a $3000 guitar is now actually more like R45k here??

Charlie4

One thing I've noticed, at least a few years ago, was that the Ibanez prices are a lot more accurate, if you would convert Dollar into Rand.
At the time being, whenever that was, $1000 Ibanez = R8000 locally, probaly R7/$. Other brands it seems such as Fender would probably be about 12-14K. For some reason Ibby's just work out cheaper. ???

Like you mentioned, WantItAll do not represent good prices.
I'd say these prices are far more accurate.

http://www.importitall.co.za/product_info.php?CatId=&CatBase=&query=esp%20standard%20eclipse&page=0 +- R24 000

http://www.importitall.co.za/ESP-Horizon-NTII-Standard-Electric-Guitar-with-Hardshell-Case-See-Thru-Black-Cherry-ap-B007O6VUKW.html +- R26 000

Including discount it would probably be R3000/R4000 less.

ESP's are marketed as metal guitars, if you look at their signed artists, but some of their guitars are very versatile - coil tapping etc. creates a lot of Tele spank, Seymour Duncan '59.
Funny thing is some of those custom shop guitars are either plain ugly or boring

http://www.espguitars.com/customshop_gallery.html

Maybe it's fair to say they're not Westerners so maybe don't follow that kind of business model?

singemonkey

Oh, I don't know...