Lethe
Hey all. So I've been recording some of the tracks my band is playing at home. The music is at time a little technical in terms of the rhythm being very funk influenced 16th notes at 125 bpm. There are sections where two guitars a piano and bass play the same thing.
Now I've also tabbed the entire thing out in guitar pro and exported the midi track to have, in terms of timing, a perfect example of the rhythm. Now nailing that part 100% correctly to the midi track proves difficult. We've all managed, but it took us quite a few takes each. And each repetition of the rhythm we broke it down so we could retake.
Main question, when playing along to the midi and metronome, we were being precise down to the 64th note. Guitars are in clean,so there is nice attack and if we were off even in the slightest we would retake.
Is this how it is done in professional recording studios? How do all these CD sound absolutely perfect? Or do I just need to practise that much more to make sure everything I ever play is perfect each time I ever play it? (yes, it should be, but it is hard to be so perfect) I noticed that I could 'fix' notes that were off by a tad with cubase by cutting and moving the note... which I did in the end for a few parts...
I'm just curious how it is done by you guys.
evolucian
Speaking from my own journey... you wouldn't want something too clinical. Of course this doesn't mean that sloppiness is acceptable, when the band plays the phrase together that part has to be in perfect synch. No argument there.
On the other side of the coin, if you're playing or aiming for precision, thats a good thing too. Makes you aware of time, yada yada yoda. Funk is super tight, but not too tight as to take the energy of the track away... dunno if that makes sense. The rhythmic principle never strays from the beats (or the in betweens) and the groove remains solid.
What you're doing, in a sense, by nailing the timing perfectly is pretty much what George was doing in his lesson. By matching everything and becoming aware of your rhythm hand (and in this case, the left hand muting too). It is an interesting strategy nonetheless and I'd love to hear it when its done or in its infancy, because it sounds super interesting.
kayDUB
Tracks are edited so that the timing is on by splitting, moving and time stretching, but like evolution says, not necessarily super clinically.
Lethe
Yeah, I also felt we were being a bit too clinical... but we wanted it to be tight and didn't know how to do i other than retaking each little part. We adjust notes by 64th notes in the end , like I said. But I don't really like the concept or idea of reating each part. It just makes me feel like it loses something along the way.
The main problem for me and the other guitarist were the muted 16 notes between notes. It's so easy to hear if they're out even by a split second... But thanks, I will post something when we have it done. Hopefully by the end of the week. (And then you guys can tear down my ego) ?
evolucian
Retaking each part means the band becomes super tight during practice and gigging. That gives the listener a wow experience as well. So there's nothing wrong with aiming for precision.
Yeah, as for the mutings going on... perhaps both the guitars can practice at home with the pc, pretty much along the lines of George's post. If you don't have it yet, get Ross Bolton's "Funk guitar, the essential guide". The mutings he does there makes me cry. Not to mention the grooves he creates just makes you bop around. But if you do have it, review some of the things and match it to your daw for that precision you want.
Also, retaking each part puts the idea into practice other than slicing and dicing and moving it to points in cubase. Both scenarios do work though. The sliced and diced part can be the practicing goal as such... but if the whole band is in agreement that tight is right and have no problem re-recording each take/sections... well, then you have a band in agreement and thats cool and ideal. In this its also important not to obsess about it as it lengthens the recording process a hell of a lot... and spending a few days on a song, uh uh. Might breed contempt for it.
Lethe
Ja, I watched those videos and cried. I've been working on those concepts since they apply to the stuff I'm trying to play. but wow, he makes it groove soo nicely!
Have you seen this? :
it's so bloody smooth. I want to be able to do that! Don't have a clue what he's really doing though...
But yeah, that style is hard to copy on a piano replacing mutes with rests, so our pianist struggled a bit. It does get irritating doing the same thing 50 times... :/ but it makes us grow as musicians and as a band... it is ego destroying! hahahahah (which is always good)
evolucian
Yeah, Ross is a monster and getting the book will actually help as you can see it in written form. The beauty of it is seeing the groove, hearing the result and finally feeling it. Once you can actually feel what you are playing the whole process becomes simpler.
Notice that in the Ross vid and the Paul Jackson vid, their rhythm hands never quit moving. It always stayed on the 16th movement whether they were playing or not. This helps you remain tight in your rhythms and gets them precise. Then getting left to synch to right takes a wee bit of practice as the left hand moves way more than the right. In the end its not a problem as the right is consistent in its movement that it becomes difficult to stray out of time.
Regarding the Jackson vid, he explained he was using all the chord tones from the chords as well as substitutions. If that terrifies you, rather think in terms of creating lines. Because thats what his exercise did - created lines that move into each other and compliment the melody notes happening within the chords themselves (chord tones). And yes, he was frikkin smooth. The only way to get smooth like that is to always feel the pulse and follow the progression and compliment without hesitation. So when you know what you want, you just do it and it flows.
A lot of people tend to finish a line, stop the rhythm hand, get the left in position for a new line and then resume. Albeit in a second it doesn't matter... they still stopped and the flow was lost, which makes the next movement sound hesitant. I hope this makes sense, lol.
Regarding the piano, he must remember he can do variations and substitutions that obviously don't conflict. Bill Evans for example. Is he using an actual piano or keyboard? Because organ would be cool too as he can play stabs here and there within the groove, same as on piano.
Lethe
Ja, I will have to get that book! Definately worth it!
I think I understand the concept of what Jackson is doing, but I can't do it lol. He makes it so musical and smooth. It's really cool! But what you say about the rhythm hand is really true... it's gotta be in the groove!
evolucian
George Benson sheet music/tabs would be a cool place to get ideas from regarding what Jackson is doing... its essentially the same thing. And its George Benson!!! ?
AlanRatcliffe
I can be a bit of a nutter for nailing it - almost Steeley Dan-like. The smallest errors become the biggest annoyances after repeated listens.
Yes, you can fix the odd timing error in the DAW (and they are getting bloody good at doing it these days), but nothing beats the feel when the players are all playing together tightly with a good groove. So often I'll take the basic tracks, fix any errors and then use those as scratch
guides to rerecord track by track. This gives each player the feel of playing with the band so they can get the groove, but with everything nice and tight.
Also, rather than punch in for partial phrases or notes, I'd always rather do a few takes and comp the best bits of each together. Sometimes I'll fly in a snippet from another part of the same track.
Lethe wrote:
But what you say about the rhythm hand is really true... it's gotta be in the groove!
Absolutely. There was the other video posted recently where the guy talked about putting your whole body into it and really feeling it before you start playing. It also ties in to a recent thread where we were talking about muting being hugely important - lets you play the note rhythmically, but without sounding it. Control...
Lethe
Yeah, I know the irritability you speak of. Just that slight offness makes me go insane and want to redo everything.
What I also ended up doing is after having done all the takes for all the instruments:
for the parts where an instrument was slightly off, I took a good take from before or after and pasted it onto it... kinda felt like I was cheating, but I was under time contraints... :/
Another thing I'm noticing after doing a lot of these rhythm exercises is that one has to be able to feel where the subdivisions are. And for me it's quite hard for 16th notes. especially at higher tempos. I can mechanically play 16th notes, but to actually feel the coming and going (don't know how else to say it) is hard . While I was recording I could really feel when I was off or when I was in. Those fractions of seconds really define groove.
I often nowdays keep my foot taping and just clap or tap 16th note type rhythms with large breaks to really able to define that 16th note Im trying to hit...
And when it comes to 16th note triplets I have absolutely no feel. I usually just base it off where the "1" is... but I can't feel it.
Malkav
In addition to what everyone is saying here I just wanna add always practice with something that's in time (backing track, metronome, whatever) Just make sure that at any point you have a base for comparison. ?
Also videos I think touch on the subject nicely:
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AlanRatcliffe
Chad Adam Browne wrote:
Also videos I think touch on the subject nicely:
Damn! Di Meola never ceases to blow my mind. Everyone raves about his lead playing, but rhythmically he's amazing too.
evolucian
awww I love that video, thanks Chad. I think any future instructionals he ever does should be in interview format because his others are so dry I fell asleep. One of my favourite players, unfortunately never stole anything from him. Shame on ME!!!
Mo-Facta
Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
Chad Adam Browne wrote:
Also videos I think touch on the subject nicely:
Damn! Di Meola never ceases to blow my mind. Everyone raves about his lead playing, but rhythmically he's amazing too.
Absolutely. But his tone is horrible!
Sorry. It just is.
Cheers ?
Mo-Facta
Coming from a guy who's recorded many bands and artists from complete novices to the best in the country, the fundamental concept here is FEEL.
Playing on the click like a robot is not what's required, most of the time, unless it's hard quantized metal or something. For most musical styles that have some element of soulfulness it's how you play AROUND the click whilst keeping the groove that's important.
That's why I stress the importance of listening to the other players in the band as opposed to the click, particularly when it comes to overdubs. I want the band to sound like they're playing together. The trick is to keep the click in the background and let it disappear without it's disappearance startling you!
All that comes back to feel.
If you ain't got feel, you ain't playin' music.
Cheers ?
Lethe
Mo Facta wrote:
Coming from a guy who's recorded many bands and artists from complete novices to the best in the country, the fundamental concept here is FEEL.
Playing on the click like a robot is not what's required, most of the time, unless it's hard quantized metal or something. For most musical styles that have some element of soulfulness it's how you play AROUND the click whilst keeping the groove that's important.
That's why I stress the importance of listening to the other players in the band as opposed to the click, particularly when it comes to overdubs. I want the band to sound like they're playing together. The trick is to keep the click in the background and let it disappear without it's disappearance startling you!
All that comes back to feel.
If you ain't got feel, you ain't playin' music.
Cheers ?
Thanks Mo for that Mo! I think I know what you mean... But I guess the musicians have to be really good to do that.
Feel is important to me, even more so than precision, but I guess for the track I mentioned we , as the band, aren't tight enough to pull it off like i'd want it to be done.
Lethe
btw, I really like that Emily Remler video. She is great! Died at 32 from heart failure... sad.
