My setup for mellow-or Jazzy guitar

vic

I had endless frustration to get my Fender Bandmaster or even the AC30 affording a mellow tone with the '57 ES -175. Not only that...feedback was a major problem. So I picked up on what Keira mentioned....the humble Roland Cube. This is the new 80W with a 12" speaker. However I found it a tiny bit "gonad-less" in the lower and bass frequencies, so I hooked up the 2x12 Bandmaster cab....I'm very happy with the result. Also, lifting the rig from the floor took care of that terrible deep feedback associated with archtops, as well as of our tomcat who whenever he gets the chance, lifts his tail against all and everything. ?

The nice thing about this Roland Cube, apart from its rich clear tone, aux in, line out, etc. and quality Fx, is that it has a built-in 80 seconds looper. So one can record and overdub small sections to evaluate different tone settings from the amp and guitar. I am happy.

@Keira....there is/was a Polytone minibrute for sale here but the guy decided to take it back to the USA with him. ☹

Tokai-SA

The coolest thing about being a jazz guitarist is you don't need valves to get great tone, just gifted fingers. ?

Keira-WitherKay

Wow i never seen a polytone 2nd hand in this country ..... However they are an aquired taste as far as amps go ... Not every jazz players cup of tea .....

Congrats on the 80w cube ... Like i'm sure you read on the jazz forum , that clean jc channel is very usable and they like the swiss army knife for jazz guitar .... Not the best tool out there but like the "swiss army knife" its gonna get the job done well.

Oddly enough you using your bandmaster cab .... For my jazz rig i too picked up an old 60's fender 4x12 cab with original speakers and split it into a 1x12 and a 2x12 cabs .... That i use with the zt or some custom amps .. Depending on the gig ... And i find the open back 2x12 with old fender speakers gives a wonderfully fat warm jazz tone ....

vic

Keira WitherKay wrote: Wow i never seen a polytone 2nd hand in this country ..... However they are an aquired taste as far as amps go ... Not every jazz players cup of tea .....

Congrats on the 80w cube ... Like i'm sure you read on the jazz forum , that clean jc channel is very usable and they like the swiss army knife for jazz guitar .... Not the best tool out there but like the "swiss army knife" its gonna get the job done well.

Oddly enough you using your bandmaster cab .... For my jazz rig i too picked up an old 60's fender 4x12 cab with original speakers and split it into a 1x12 and a 2x12 cabs .... That i use with the zt or some custom amps .. Depending on the gig ... And i find the open back 2x12 with old fender speakers gives a wonderfully fat warm jazz tone ....

You're right....the JC clean channel is great and the Fender cab with its Jensens adds that extra dimension to the sound....the recorded sound is warm and rich with that little bite from the PAF as a bonus. The single PAF ES-175 is another animal....one has to carefully dial in the tone settings otherwise it sounds a bit too woody and acoustic for my taste. With the 2 pup Epi ES-175 and Super 400 one gets that (electric) jazz tone in a jiffy....not so with the Gibbo.....it needs special considerations. ?

EDIT: Forgot to mention...this rig also works very well with a Strat or Les Paul.

vic

Tokai SA wrote: The coolest thing about being a jazz guitarist is you don't need valves to get great tone, just gifted fingers. ?

Lance this is just about the biggest adaptation I've ever had to make but I got a bit tired of the rockabilly, blues and middle of the road stuff. And you're right...the tone for jazz is mostly in the hands...both hands. I will get to the fingers part only later on.... ?

Chocklit_Thunda

Does the amp being off the ground really get rid of the feedback?? ???

vic

Chocklit_Thunda wrote: Does the amp being off the ground really get rid of the feedback?? ???

It certainly helps in this case. Of course you can't play at "high" volumes because of the confined space and one has to adjust your seating angle relative to the speakers. But with the speakers at about ear height one can play at lower volumes and thus reduce the onset of feedback.

Chocklit_Thunda

I really want to try that now but all i have in my music space is a rocking chair! That's either a really dangerous idea or it would give me the coolest jazzy vibrato as the chair rocks ?

but i must say, i'm still loving that 175!

vic

Chocklit_Thunda wrote: I really want to try that now but all i have in my music space is a rocking chair! That's either a really dangerous idea or it would give me the coolest jazzy vibrato as the chair rocks ?

but i must say, i'm still loving that 175!

Thanks Chocklit....another point is that the Bandmaster head is very treble sounding and to get away from that I had to turn the treble way way down but also had to turn the bass up to get a warmer tone......problem ! The Roland is a much more balanced amp and its bass output is much less relative to the BM. Hopefully your amp also has a good balanced audio spectrum and that should curb excessive feedback. In my case most feedback occurred at the D and C bass note frequencies....lifting the cab with BM head from the floor immediately had a positive affect. So when I got the Roland Cube that was the way to go as well...

Attila

yep Cubes love external cabs,

Nice idea to lift the cab off the floor never thought of that, but explains why my cab sounds different since I put casters on

AlanRatcliffe

The floor is a boundary like any other, so causes the boundary effect: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1995_articles/dec95/boundaryeffect.html
Moving the amp away from the floor changes he modes and standing waves.

Chocklit_Thunda

Hmmm... Well usually my amp has boosted bass and treble so I roll both of them down and boost the mids. The bass boost could be because of what Alan posted and my room being small enough for the lows to be reflected and doubled but the treble is kind if biting too (not very jazzy)
You guys still think I should lift the amp?

vic

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: The floor is a boundary like any other, so causes the boundary effect: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1995_articles/dec95/boundaryeffect.html
Moving the amp away from the floor changes he modes and standing waves.

"If one wall can cause a 6dB bass rise, what sort of damage can two walls do? Position yourself in a corner, and you get in-phase reflections from two nearby walls, producing a 12dB increase in bass. If you now move your head down to floor level, you'll find that the floor joins in and adds another 6dB just for good measure....."

I have suspected this....I have a cement floor (very reflective for sound waves) in my "studio" and this could explain the bass type feedback at certain lower frequencies.

vic

Chocklit_Thunda wrote: Hmmm... Well usually my amp has boosted bass and treble so I roll both of them down and boost the mids. The bass boost could be because of what Alan posted and my room being small enough for the lows to be reflected and doubled but the treble is kind if biting too (not very jazzy)
You guys still think I should lift the amp?

Well, give it a try....lift to about ear height when sitting down and just reposition your chair and archtop relative to the speaker.

Except for the bass amp we always had our amps lifted from the stage floor but that was more to get a better grip on the tone and volume when playing ( before arrival of stage monitors,sound guys taking care of the mix and having PA's which could take almost all the instruments on stage)..... although it was widely believed that a wooden stage floor is a tone drencher ?

Just another point ( I mentioned it above somewhere). I get little if any feedback with the Epi 175 or Super 400. Both have 2 pups , have stiffer tops and have metal TOM bridges. The '57 175 on the other hand has only one pup in the neck position, thus has more wood in the top (which resonates more) plus it has a wooden bridge and saddles, adding to the overall "woodiness" and resonance. Your archtop I presume falls more in the S400 and Epi 175 category.

AlanRatcliffe

Raising the amp is an easy one to try. Amp stands are great in that they both raise the amp from the floor and tilt it up towards you.

Another trick is to put your amp in your usual listening position, then move around the room playing until you find a sweet spot - then put the amp there. That sorts out many problems with room modes.

vic

Joe Moore wrote: Hey Vic ,
You can actually easily remove the electronic innards, as a complete unit, out of of the Cube 80 XL combo, and just use it as a head with your cab . Ol' Attila and I were going to do that with mine , for me to use with a 2 x 12 cab I had , but I sadly sold it (them) , before we could get around to doing it... :?
I truely regret selling that amp (and cab) . A Cube 80 XL is an all round workhorse of note :'(

Thanks Joel. What cab have you had with it ?

For the moment I will keep it as is....because one can hook it up with a PA as well on the rare occasion (about 3 times a year) when I gig with my old band. This set-up is purely for the ES-175 for a jazzy tone here at home.

Charlie4

I had a Cube 60 a few years ago, probably one of the greatest beginner amps imo, very versatile. As mentioned they are little tanks. Now I'm using a 1981 Cube 60, the blonde one. The amp is a one trick pony but what is does it does very well imo. 30 Years of gigging from the previous owner, pub muso, and it's still going strong. There is one atm on Gumtree for 1k.
Best 1000 bucks I've spent. 8)

Greg

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Raising the amp is an easy one to try. Amp stands are great in that they both raise the amp from the floor and tilt it up towards you.

Another trick is to put your amp in your usual listening position, then move around the room playing until you find a sweet spot - then put the amp there. That sorts out many problems with room modes.

Same story with studio monitors! +1 for this!