1957 Gibson ES-175. The saga with the PAF

vic

I recently bought this ES-175. The FON (Factory Order Number) dates it to 1957 but the serial number dates the guitar to 1958

All original (or so I thought ☹ ) except for replaced tuners and missing a scratch plate. The guitar has also been refretted at some stage.

When I received it I pulled the "PAF" to check on the finer detail and discovered that the PUP in there was not the one original to the guitar. The pole spacings were for a bridge pup
and it sounded a bit bright. Here is the "PAF"

Absent are the tool markings on the "legs" holding the height adjustment screws. These tool marks are present on most if not all early PAFs.
Further investigation revealed that the original PAF was taken out (by accident.....mmmmh) and replaced with this pup (also by accident...mmmmh) which I'm not sure exactly what it is. Now it could be that this is a legit PAF. However to establish that one would have to break the solder seals/joints to be able to look at what's under the bonnet.

In the meantime I contacted the seller and demanded the original neck PAF. Thanks to my good friend Aubs in JhB the original was recovered and couriered to me. I have just received it. Here's a pic. Correct pole spacings and tool marks on the legs and the solder is undisturbed. Thanks Aubrey !

Next was to authenticate the pickup ring as so many fakes are in circulation. For this I consulted the provide.net site on vintage Gibsons. Notice all the mold markings and number codes which one should look for. I am very happy to say the ring of this guitar is legit...has all the correct markings and numbers ?

Next step is to put the original '57 PAF back where it belongs ?

kapepper

All in all a beautifull guitar but was the seller trying to pull your leg?

anyway, now it is complete and congrats with this one!!!!!!

Reinhard

Great stuff Vic! I think I saw that one Gumtree.

I am so happy for you that you got the original PAF and that the ring is original, because a PAF and ring is worth a lot of money. Let us know how she sounds with the PAF ?

vic

kapepper wrote: All in all a beautifull guitar but was the seller trying to pull your leg?

anyway, now it is complete and congrats with this one!!!!!!

Thanks Kaps and Reinhard. I dunno who pulled whose leg here. Maybe the person who "serviced" the guitar tried to pull the leg of the owner ? The moral of the story is...in cases such as this where original PAFs are involved, NEVER let the guitar out of your sight when taken for a setup, etc. These old PAFs and mounting rings are very rare and valuable ($2000 plus !)...here it's not so much about the money but the originality of the electronics could have been compromised.

I'm just glad that we could salvage the original PAF.

Chocklit_Thunda

Beautiful! Seriously beautiful! And I'm glad you got the original pup!
What are you gonna do with the other? And what was the other? A Gibson or some aftermarket jobbie?

vic

Chocklit_Thunda wrote: Beautiful! Seriously beautiful! And I'm glad you got the original pup!
What are you gonna do with the other? And what was the other? A Gibson or some aftermarket jobbie?

Thanks Chocklit.
Well, after I've re-installed the original PAF, I will discuss the way forward with the original owner...either return it or make him an offer for the unknown pup. The problem is that if I (or the owner) want to authenticate this pup, we will have to break the solder seals to check on the magnet and bobbins, etc. which could devaluate the pup should it be a legit bridge PAF. I will in the meantime check the resistance value of this and maybe, just maybe, one could make a call based on that ? I am sure that the PAF sticker on this unknown one as well as the base plate is legit...what I don't know is what's under the nickel cover....PLUS the question arises.....why was the swopping done in the first place ?. Maybe the original PAF is not working optimally ? That I must still establish.

Chocklit_Thunda

Ah I understand ? Hopefully the PAF is in working condition though... As for the replacement pup I'm sure you could check the patent no against existing references? But hopefully the pickup wasn't swapped out by the previous owner to scam unsuspecting buyers? I don't think it would be that way but you never know...
Looking forward to the updates! ? keep us posted

Charlie4

Beautiful vintage piece of art. 8)
Something I'm actually curious about is whether the spacing between the neck pickup and the neck makes a difference tone wise - Compared to all the other Gibby hollowbodies which have the neck pickup right next to the neck. Maybe an ES 175 vs 137 tonal comparison, provided both are old school PAF's would be interesting (only taking the similar shape into consideration).

vic

Charlie4 wrote: Beautiful vintage piece of art. 8)
Something I'm actually curious about is whether the spacing between the neck pickup and the neck makes a difference tone wise - Compared to all the other Gibby hollowbodies which have the neck pickup right next to the neck. Maybe an ES 175 vs 137 tonal comparison, provided both are old school PAF's would be interesting (only taking the similar shape into consideration).

Thanks Charlie. Interesting and good question. Now bear in mind this is one of the very first ES-175's equipt with a single PAF. Previous to this they had a single P90 (in the same position) or sometimes two of these pups. Later 175's had 2 PAFs. I spoke to a friend in the US (also a Gibboholic ?) some time ago about the the placement of the PAF and according to him that very position is the "sweet-spot" of a ES-175

Chabenda

Wow Vic, she is very beautiful indeed. Congratulations!!

There is so much that can happen to a guitar over fifty plus years and it is a miracle that you have managed to get your hands on the original pickup.

Good for you!

vic

Thanks Chabs.

Fortunately for me the seller sent me pics of the guitar and of the PAF still attached to the wiring of the guitar. Otherwise I would not have known for sure that a swop was made. He could then use his pic and the one I sent him of the replacement PAF to sort the matter out with a third party.

Yes I am very thankful that I will have the original PAF now in this guitar. The vintage guitar business can be full of potholes so one must be very careful how you tread. I'm just glad the issue has been sorted.

vic

Chocklit_Thunda wrote: Ah I understand ? Hopefully the PAF is in working condition though... As for the replacement pup I'm sure you could check the patent no against existing references? But hopefully the pickup wasn't swapped out by the previous owner to scam unsuspecting buyers? I don't think it would be that way but you never know...
Looking forward to the updates! ? keep us posted

Forgot to mention...these pups are pre-patent number, thus the term Patent Applied For (PAF) for them. So there is no reference number/s of any sort that one could use in this case.

singemonkey

Wonderful Vic. I'm actually a little amazed that you managed to get the original pickup back. Stroke of luck that the move hadn't happened so far back as to leave it untraceable. But a buyer would have to be pretty naive not to confirm that the pickup was original. So congrats all round. Beautiful guitar. And well done for catching that pickup.

vic

singemonkey wrote: Wonderful Vic. I'm actually a little amazed that you managed to get the original pickup back. Stroke of luck that the move hadn't happened so far back as to leave it untraceable. But a buyer would have to be pretty naive not to confirm that the pickup was original. So congrats all round. Beautiful guitar. And well done for catching that pickup.

Thanks Singe.

Chabenda

Vic - there seems to be a little more road wear on the head than on the body - looks like things got a bit out of hand at the old folks home on a Friday night, certainly look like denture marks to me! ?

Please post her pic on the Road Worn and Mojoed Old Timer's thread!

vic

Chabenda wrote: Vic - there seems to be a little more road wear on the head than on the body - looks like things got a bit out of hand at the old folks home on a Friday night, certainly look like denture marks to me! ?

Please post her pic on the Road Worn and Mojoed Old Timer's thread!

JIP...the Gibbo plus brandy and coke....LOL !
Sure... will do

aubs1

Hey Vic, I am so glad we eventually had a "Happy ending" ... once more, sorry about the delay .... maar nou ja, all's well that ends well!

Congrats my friend, enjoy the babe! :applause:

vic

Aubs1 wrote: Hey Vic, I am so glad we eventually had a "Happy ending" ... once more, sorry about the delay .... maar nou ja, all's well that ends well!

Congrats my friend, enjoy the babe! :applause:

Thank YOU sooo much again Aubrey for all you've done !

singemonkey

Vic wrote:
Aubs1 wrote: Hey Vic, I am so glad we eventually had a "Happy ending" ... once more, sorry about the delay .... maar nou ja, all's well that ends well!

Congrats my friend, enjoy the babe! :applause:
Thank YOU sooo much again Aubrey for all you've done !

No one scams a guy who can shoot so well ? ?

[deleted]

What a STUNNING piece of history!

Please make a video with nice, crisp audio so that we can all bask in the warmth?

I would love to spend an hour or two playing it, I'm sure the neck feels epic!