Why the amp/cabinet stacks?

serven

Hi,

I have a question and hoping someone here can answer it. Why is the amp/cabinet such a big deal for the guitarists? I have some crappy thing but I almost never use it.

The thing is that I normally practice and play along with a MIDI synthesizer and it makes no sense to me to have that come from one source (speakers) and then the guitar etc separately? Is it because nobody has the equipment (mixer to bring everything together, pedals to handle the FX and speakers/amps for noise) or am I missing something majorly here?

I have heard that people prefer running their guitar through their own amp first so that they can hear their own part more clearly when playing in a band but surely most bands have monitor headphones to take care of this little issue.

Sorry I am a clueless uneducated type, but I would really like to know whether I am missing something huge here or what the story is!!!

peterleroux

A big part of it is that guitar amps are not hifi devices- they don't take the sound that comes in and simply make it louder- they colour the signal a lot. There are a lot of aspects to this colouration that have to do with preamp distortion, power amp distortion, speaker EMF, cabinet response and even the electrical interaction between the pickup impedance and the preamp impedance. Unlike a keyboard that outputs to an amp that has a fairly flat, undistorted response, the amp is, in reality, an important part of the instrument that is called an electric guitar but should really be thought of as guitar and amp together

Warren

serven wrote: Hi,

I have a question and hoping someone here can answer it. Why is the amp/cabinet such a big deal for the guitarists? I have some crappy thing but I almost never use it.

The thing is that I normally practice and play along with a MIDI synthesizer and it makes no sense to me to have that come from one source (speakers) and then the guitar etc separately? Is it because nobody has the equipment (mixer to bring everything together, pedals to handle the FX and speakers/amps for noise) or am I missing something majorly here?

I have heard that people prefer running their guitar through their own amp first so that they can hear their own part more clearly when playing in a band but surely most bands have monitor headphones to take care of this little issue.

Sorry I am a clueless uneducated type, but I would really like to know whether I am missing something huge here or what the story is!!!

Peter has answered the question very well. I am just curious: what do you plug your guitar into when you're playing along with the synth?

AlanRatcliffe

+1 to Peter.

Put simply, the amp and speaker are a big part of the electric guitar sound. A very big part - some would say more so than the guitar itself.

You do get devices made specifically to plug into PA and/or monitor systems, but they all share one trait - they all try to simulate the sound and feel of a real amp and speaker - to varying degrees of success. Even if you use these devices it still pays to know what you are missing as a guitar and amp become different animals at volume. I wrote about it a bit here: http://articles.guitarforum.co.za/blogs/alan-ratcliffe/disgusting-stink-too-loud-electric-guitar

aja

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:some would say more so than the guitar itself.

I am one of those people! ?

singemonkey

The amplifier is part of an electric guitar. It's part of the instrument. It's like asking why a cello has that big awkard box attached when it could just have a piezo pickup on a stick with strings. The amplifier responds in complex ways to the signal coming out of the guitar - distorting more as you dig into the strings or turn up the volume which is the essence of expression with this particular instrument much like the way a piano changes sound when you hit the keys harder. The electronics and the loud-speaker work together to create the most classic of electric guitar sounds.

It's not just a box for making the electric guitar louder - although there is an (I think) regrettable tendency for guitar players to treat it that way now days.

rikus

singemonkey wrote: The amplifier is part of an electric guitar. It's part of the instrument. It's like asking why a cello has that big awkard box attached when it could just have a piezo pickup on a stick with strings. The amplifier responds in complex ways to the signal coming out of the guitar - distorting more as you dig into the strings or turn up the volume which is the essence of expression with this particular instrument much like the way a piano changes sound when you hit the keys harder. The electronics and the loud-speaker work together to create the most classic of electric guitar sounds.

It's not just a box for making the electric guitar louder - although there is an (I think) regrettable tendency for guitar players to treat it that way now days.

This! Well said.

Nicholas-L

Agreeing with everything said. The amp you use is part of your sound and especially valve amps. Each type of valve has it's own character and the respond to how you play. But besides that it just looks freaking Cool having a stack behind you ? ? ?

serven

Thank you all for all the responses, maybe this is something I should start looking into then.

I was poking through the options at Music Mate today but then came home to do research and it seems like quite a daunting decision - not sure where to start yet, suppose I should keep reading.

As Far:

ShreddySmurf wrote: Peter has answered the question very well. I am just curious: what do you plug your guitar into when you're playing along with the synth?

My guitar goes into my crappy Zoom II 707 FX Pedal, from there it goes into my Behringer Eurodesk SX3242FX Mixer which sends it out again into the computer I use for all things audio (recording, midi writing etc) where I use Cubase to further play with some effects that sounds better than the Zoom, and then back out to the Mixer again.

From there it is amps and speakers.

What I did find strange is that I saw that most of the relatively entry to mid priced amps (R 2000 to R 2750 about) do not have an output to take into a central system - I found that quite shocking I must say as it will be an entire dealbreaker for me. Maybe MM just don't have the right stuff also I suppose.

Again, thank you all for the enlightenment. I guess I will start reading and shopping.

StefStoep

serven wrote:
What I did find strange is that I saw that most of the relatively entry to mid priced amps (R 2000 to R 2750 about) do not have an output to take into a central system - I found that quite shocking I must say as it will be an entire dealbreaker for me. Maybe MM just don't have the right stuff also I suppose.

If i understand correctly, most guitarist/sound engineers mic up the guitar amps as to get the true sound/tone that comes out of the amp. I had a amp with a "line out" and if i used that instead of a mic, the tone that came out the "central" system"/ front of house was very plastic. As far as i know most amps with a line out have the same problem.

xcpointx

I'd say one thing you can do is start by looking at players you admire, and see what gear they are using. Despite what you may think, it isn't all for image. You won't find many big names running a pedal straight into a desk and the reason is simply because that is not the tone they are after. Im sure someone somewhere (probably Japanese) does some amazing things this way though ?

Psean

StefStoep wrote:
serven wrote:
What I did find strange is that I saw that most of the relatively entry to mid priced amps (R 2000 to R 2750 about) do not have an output to take into a central system - I found that quite shocking I must say as it will be an entire dealbreaker for me. Maybe MM just don't have the right stuff also I suppose.
If i understand correctly, most guitarist/sound engineers mic up the guitar amps as to get the true sound/tone that comes out of the amp. I had a amp with a "line out" and if i used that instead of a mic, the tone that came out the "central" system"/ front of house was very plastic. As far as i know most amps with a line out have the same problem.

+1
The speaker is a huge part of the sound, hence the mic'ing.

serven wrote: Thank you all for all the responses, maybe this is something I should start looking into then.

I was poking through the options at Music Mate today but then came home to do research and it seems like quite a daunting decision - not sure where to start yet, suppose I should keep reading.

Again, thank you all for the enlightenment. I guess I will start reading and shopping.

You can start your reading here:
http://www.guitarforum.co.za/guitar-gear/buying-your-first-gear-the-smart-way-the-singemonkey-approach/
http://hellfirebluesclub.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/100-watt-tube-amplifiers-wtf-are-they-for/

serven

Just thought I'd provide some feedback here

I have now replaced my cheapy Ritmuller cash crusaders special with an ESP MH350FR and loving it. The first guitar I bought brand new after a whole lot of research. Still getting used to the floating bridge but getting there.

However back to the amplifier issue. While I was at it, I have also bought a Laney Ironheart IRT-60H with the 212 cabinet (I wanted the combo - there was no stock, and ETA of "End of July" became "End of August"). Before The combo, I was looking for something smaller but couldn't really find anything I actually really liked so figured what the hell. I think I might still have to get a small practice amp sometime if I don't want to be evicted out of the security complex but will let you guys know how this goes now.

Also picked up an SM57 mic to play around with some recording again. Will try this later today, when it is legal to make a lot of noise. I have only had a few minutes since I got the amp to really try it at non-middle-of-the-night volume, and it does seem to sound one hell of a lot better when cranked up a little bit.

Thanks for all the advice, and before someone says it - yes I am aware that 60w of power is way too much, especially for what I do!!

Tokai-SA

xdoomx wrote: You won't find many big names running a pedal straight into a desk and the reason is simply because that is not the tone they are after.

It depends.
David Gilmour recorded the WALL solo plugging his Les Paul into a Zoom direct to the desk....no amp, no speaker, no mic involved.

Tokai-SA

serven wrote: Hi,

I have a question and hoping someone here can answer it. Why is the amp/cabinet such a big deal for the guitarists?

Metallica used no speaker cabinets on stage when they were in SA and their sound engineer says it's the best live sound the bands ever had...and he knows, he's been engineering for them since they started.
They played with in ears, their Diezel amps were all off stage and micd up.
There were also on stage monitors but the guitarists mainly heard themselves through the in ear system unless they were right up against the on stage monitors.

Your ZOOM, and other digital amp modellers attempt to model the sound of a speaker cabinet with a mic in front of it...some modellers do a better job than others.
As much as 80% of the sound of an amplifier is determined by the speakers.
Try plugging 10 different tube amps into the same guitar cabinet and you'll see what I mean.

Keep in mind.
When you and I are in the audience, whether it be a stadium concert or small club gig, we hear the micd version of the amp coming through the PA system...we don't have a clue what the speaker cabinet sounds like on the stage.
You and I in the audience would NOT know whether we're hearing a micd speaker cabinet or a modeller through the PA system/speakers.
For you and I in the audience the 'better' guitar tone will depend on the skill level of the guitarist, not on whether he's using a 65 Deluxe Reverb or a digital modeller.

Things have changed, these days the most advanced digital modellers have the ability to model the 'mojo' of a valve.
They also have more than one output.
You can switch off the cabinet/mic modelling on one output, and run the second output with cabinet/mic modelling ON.
One output (cabinet modelling OFF) runs into a poweramp (tube or SS) and guitar speaker cabinet, for the guitarist to hear himself on stage, and the second output (cabinet modelling ON) runs to the PA system...the best of both worlds at the same time.

AlanRatcliffe

Tokai SA wrote: David Gilmour recorded the WALL solo plugging his Les Paul into a Zoom direct to the desk....no amp, no speaker, no mic involved.

He DI'd to be sure, but using DI boxes and the engineer reamped through HiWatt and Gallien Krueger amps WEM cab and a Yamaha rotating speaker.

Zoom didn't exist at the time of The Wall recording sessions.

Tokai-SA

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
Tokai SA wrote: David Gilmour recorded the WALL solo plugging his Les Paul into a Zoom direct to the desk....no amp, no speaker, no mic involved.
He DI'd to be sure, but using DI boxes and the engineer reamped through HiWatt and Gallien Krueger amps WEM cab and a Yamaha rotating speaker.

Zoom didn't exist at the time of The Wall recording sessions.

My mistake, I had Zoom stuck in my head. ?
For the solo...from Gilmourish, he's usually spot on.
Neck pickup; clean signal heavily gated/compressed into the mixing desk, then fed through a Mesa/Boogie amp and back into the mixing desk.
The way I understand it, no micd speakers involved.

serven

Thank you all for your advice and explanations.

I have now managed to get a sound I like by replacing my amp with the Laney and micing it with a sm57, really has made a world of difference

Can listen to it here: http://www.guitarforum.co.za/clips-for-review/first-recording-(authority-of-truth)/msg233943/#msg233943

Thanks again

warrenpridgeon

Tokai SA wrote:
serven wrote: Hi,

I have a question and hoping someone here can answer it. Why is the amp/cabinet such a big deal for the guitarists?
Metallica used no speaker cabinets on stage when they were in SA and their sound engineer says it's the best live sound the bands ever had...and he knows, he's been engineering for them since they started.
They played with in ears, their Diezel amps were all off stage and micd up.
There were also on stage monitors but the guitarists mainly heard themselves through the in ear system unless they were right up against the on stage monitors.

Your ZOOM, and other digital amp modellers attempt to model the sound of a speaker cabinet with a mic in front of it...some modellers do a better job than others.
As much as 80% of the sound of an amplifier is determined by the speakers.
Try plugging 10 different tube amps into the same guitar cabinet and you'll see what I mean.

Keep in mind.
When you and I are in the audience, whether it be a stadium concert or small club gig, we hear the micd version of the amp coming through the PA system...we don't have a clue what the speaker cabinet sounds like on the stage.
You and I in the audience would NOT know whether we're hearing a micd speaker cabinet or a modeller through the PA system/speakers.
For you and I in the audience the 'better' guitar tone will depend on the skill level of the guitarist, not on whether he's using a 65 Deluxe Reverb or a digital modeller.

Things have changed, these days the most advanced digital modellers have the ability to model the 'mojo' of a valve.
They also have more than one output.
You can switch off the cabinet/mic modelling on one output, and run the second output with cabinet/mic modelling ON.
One output (cabinet modelling OFF) runs into a poweramp (tube or SS) and guitar speaker cabinet, for the guitarist to hear himself on stage, and the second output (cabinet modelling ON) runs to the PA system...the best of both worlds at the same time.

Other factors will include the venue, the quality of the FOH and very very important... the skill of the sound guy.
I've been to events where guys have used line 6 floor jobbies and have sounded awesome, and I've been to events where guys were using marshall half stacks and sounded terrible.
Nothing grinds my gear worse (probably ? ) than seeing the lead guitarist stepping forward and ripping a solo that basically stops just short of setting his guitar on fire and you just hear the rhythm guitarist and bass... like I NEED to hear the solo!!!!

AlanRatcliffe

warrenpridgeon wrote: Nothing grinds my gear worse (probably ? ) than seeing the lead guitarist stepping forward and ripping a solo that basically stops just short of setting his guitar on fire and you just hear the rhythm guitarist and bass...

I dunno, there is just something funny about a guy with a guitar doing what looks like an elaborate mime (guitar face 'n all) with a good rhythm section groove backing it up - I takes my entertainment where I finds it. ?