P-rail neck pickup for Ibanez S470?

kitaarpeer

Hi guys...I searched the forums and couldn't find any previous threads that could help me out, so sorry if I'm repeating here...

My Ibanez (HSH) still has stock Inf pickups in (Inf1 in the neck and Inf2 in the bridge) with a 5-way switch. Lately I've gotten annoyed with how muddy / dark my neck pu is. I've always used it because I like the sustain and balls it has (not a fan of single coils), and I prefer the tone of neck over bridge. Also the huge difference in output volume screws around when gigging if I switch between pu's (say splitting to the middle single coil or whatever).

So after buying a lovely '72 Ibanez hollowbody I've fallen in love with its brighter sound and how that influenced my playing. Now I'm looking to get my neck pu brighter as the hollowbody is becoming my main axe and I want to "un-metal" the sound of my S (our music is becoming less heavy).

The specs on my S is: Mahogony body, Rosewood fretboard, Maple neck, ZR tremolo. (just for background)

I've read up on pickups and I really like the Seymour Duncan P-Rails http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/electric/humbucker/medium-output/prails_shpr1/
Also I've read up on some DiMarzio's like the

Humbucker from hell http://www.dimarzio.com/pickups/humbuckers/humbucker-hell
Air Classic http://www.dimarzio.com/pickups/humbuckers/air-classic-neck
PAF http://www.dimarzio.com/pickups/humbuckers/paf-36th-anniversary

I'm pretty sold on the P-rails, but with that comes the whole issue with wiring everything up! There isn't a lot of space on the S and I'm not too keen on drilling her up...On this point:

Could you wire it up with the 5-way switch so that the front 3 positions are the P-rail (I'll have to choose between series or parallel for humbucker mode) and the last two for the middle single pu and the last for my bridge humbucker?
Could I rather buy a mini 3-way toggle and big 3-way toggle and mount them in the cavity of the 5-way switch? Mini for the P-rail and big for front-middle-bridge (or whatever)
Some other super wiring system / super switch / any advice!? (I've never modded my anything!)

Sorry this is so long, but I'd rather give too much info now lol. Thanx so long for any advice / opinions ?

Sebber

If I understand the wiring for the P-Rail pickup correctly, yes you can do your option number 1, but I think you'd be sacrificing a lot of the possible versatility that a P-Rail will give you if you do so, not to mention the fact that your only options would be (not necessarily in this order):

1 - P-Rail on full humbucking mode
2 - P-Rail P90 mode
3 - P-Rail single-coil mode
4 - Middle single-coil
5 - Bridge Humbucker

No mixed pickup options?

If you don't want to install a 3-way toggle switch to select the P-Rail mode, perhaps look at replacing your stock volume/tone pots with push-pull pots to select the P-Rail mode. This would be much more versatile as it would be exactly the same as you've got now, with the added option of P-90 AND single-coil modes in the neck position, as well as humbucker/P90/single-coil mixed with the middle single-coil, which would give you 5 additional tonal options above and beyond what you have now.

kitaarpeer

Yeah I forgot about that?! Where / how do you get your hands on those? And I'm guessing I'll stick to 500k pots (I don't really know what the diff is between them all ?). And would it be worth while to maybe replace the 5 way switch as well? I've read people complaining about it somewhere? (once again, I don't mod so I've never bothered with anything else than stock)

How many options would there be with two push-pull pots? The reason I'm asking is because the P-rail has a total of four different sounds: P90, rail, humbucker series and humbucker parallel.

Thanx so long! ?

MoJo-JoJoe

One of these would be a good way to go. Leave the wiring on the 5-way as-is and just wire the output of the triple-shot in place of the existing humbucker. www.seymourduncan.com/products/accessories/triple-shot-mou/triple_shot_swi/

kitaarpeer

I looked at that, but the thing is, won't it look crappy on my guitar...it has chrome mounting rings, so won't one plastic black and one chrome one look kinda funny? :-\

kitaarpeer

So no one is against the P-rails? That's a relief, I actually expected some uproar about it lol ? ?

aja

Nah the p-rails are cool. I just don't like the "single coil" rail sound they have, but the P90 and combined sounds are cool!

MoJo-JoJoe

kitaarpeer wrote: I looked at that, but the thing is, won't it look crappy on my guitar...it has chrome mounting rings, so won't one plastic black and one chrome one look kinda funny? :-\

Push-pull / push-push pots are prob going to be a rather tight fit in an S-series. Maybe contact the Duncan Custom Shop to see if they will do a triple-shot in chrome / black-chrome / cosmo-black or whatever you need.

kitaarpeer

aja wrote: Nah the p-rails are cool. I just don't like the "single coil" rail sound they have, but the P90 and combined sounds are cool!

Yeah Im pretty keen on the P90, and was hoping to get a Billy Talent type sound on the rail (he pulls off some heavy riffs (on his Fender) but still has that single coil pop?)...on that note, I've read about people swopping the pu around so that the rail is on the outside...that could give a interesting effect with the P90 more towards the bridge and the single coil against the neck?

MoJo JoJoe wrote: Push-pull / push-push pots are prob going to be a rather tight fit in an S-series. Maybe contact the Duncan Custom Shop to see if they will do a triple-shot in chrome / black-chrome / cosmo-black or whatever you need.

Oh I'll try that...I'm just worried about all of this being suuper expensive? I can E-bay the P-rail for $90 incl shipping (which is fair) but it looks like the triple-shot is about $30 excl shipping...so wouldn't push-pull be a cheaper option? How much more space does it require? I havn't seen them in person ever :sorry:

AlanRatcliffe

P-Rails were never an option for me as the only sound that is to my liking is the P90. Full bucker is overpowered and the single-coil is bland. I'd rather go for a humbucker sized P90.

kitaarpeer wrote: I've read about people swopping the pu around so that the rail is on the outside...that could give a interesting effect with the P90 more towards the bridge and the single coil against the neck?

It will change the sound, but it will make the P90 brighter and the single warmer - in other words they will sound closer to each other than before. Could be interesting if you had a guitar with two P-Rails (although that would give you a huge array of options, very few of which you would likely use ...and if you are playing live, simplicity is key).

kitaarpeer

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: P-Rails were never an option for me as the only sound that is to my liking is the P90. Full bucker is overpowered and the single-coil is bland. I'd rather go for a humbucker sized P90.

Thats what Ive read as well...its sort of a jack of all trades pedal it sounds like. Im actually concerned that with the versatility comes poor(er) quality.

Would you think a proper P90 would clean up my tone? i.e. make my sound more articulated? Im feeling like a traitor putting a P90 into a Ibby! hahaha! Our vocalist has a Fender Aerodyne Tele with a P90 in the neck...maybe Ill feel how it plays...

Is there any P90's youd recommend, or would any of the previous pu's suffice for my needs? Ill read up a bit on them in the meanwhile ?

AlanRatcliffe

kitaarpeer wrote: Im actually concerned that with the versatility comes poor(er) quality.

Quality is good (it's a Duncan), but I do feel it's a bit of a Jack-of-all-trades...

Would you think a proper P90 would clean up my tone? i.e. make my sound more articulated?

Yeah, it will, it's a fat single coil, leans more to humbucker tonality (pronounced mids) than a Strat, but has more articulation and cleans up nicely with the volume control.

Fralin also has some interesting HB size pickups - the P92 (P90-ish) and the Twangbucker (leans more to a proper single coil) - both still hum cancelling.
The TV Jones pickups are mostly available in humbucker size too.
The DiMarzio Eric Johnson humbuckers are bright and chimey - like a Gretsch pickup and the Bluesbucker sounds like a P90.
Lollar has the El Rayo humbuckers which are also bright and chimey...
Kinman does some very articulate humbuckers too.

I've got a pair of Tonerider Rebel 90s in a 12-String and they are pretty cool and amazingly inexpensive.

kitaarpeer

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Fralin also has some interesting HB size pickups - the P92 (P90-ish) and the Twangbucker (leans more to a proper single coil) - both still hum cancelling.
The TV Jones pickups are mostly available in humbucker size too.
The DiMarzio Eric Johnson humbuckers are bright and chimey - like a Gretsch pickup and the Bluesbucker sounds like a P90.
Lollar has the El Rayo humbuckers which are also bright and chimey...
Kinman does some very articulate humbuckers too.

I've got a pair of Tonerider Rebel 90s in a 12-String and they are pretty cool and amazingly inexpensive.

I've read up a bit on these...unfortunately you have immaculate (expensive) taste in the Fralin, TV Jones, Lollar and Kinman pu's, but alas I'm not financially able to get any of them! ☹

The Rebel 90s actually sounds really awesome! Not just the price, but the overall feel I'm looking for. The EJ Customs sounds a bit too Strat-ty, if that makes sense?

I'm just concerned with two things now...with the Rebel 90s, would I have unwanted hum (this isn't a humbucker afterall...) and how would I wire it up with the 5-way switch?

Thanx so much for all the help...really feeling super noob at the moment hahaha

Gearhead

Good cavity shielding takes away much of the hum on any single coil guitar. The rest is, eh... mojo 8)
The wiring is going to be exactly like with any other single coil eh.

kitaarpeer

Gearhead wrote: Good cavity shielding takes away much of the hum on any single coil guitar. The rest is, eh... mojo 8)
The wiring is going to be exactly like with any other single coil eh.

Well I'm replacing the humbucker, so wouldn't that imply that I'll be losing one sound on the 5-way switch?

Gearhead

kitaarpeer wrote: Well I'm replacing the humbucker, so wouldn't that imply that I'll be losing one sound on the 5-way switch?

Not from an HSH with 5 way switch, no. The five way switch is wired to give in position 4 either one coil of the neck bucker plus the center single coil, or (more likely) both the bucker and the single coil. In the latter case you just replace the wiring, in the former you will want to simplify things a bit.

kitaarpeer

Aaah obviously...thanx!

AlanRatcliffe

kitaarpeer wrote: unfortunately you have immaculate (expensive) taste

Lawks, don't I know it! I often wish I didn't. ? But I know that I'm not going to be happy until I get something really good that compliments the guitar, so just going straight to the good stuff usually saves me money in the long run.

with the Rebel 90s, would I have unwanted hum (this isn't a humbucker afterall...) and how would I wire it up with the 5-way switch?

The Rebel 90s aren't too bad for hum as they are covered pickups. Also if you have a pair, the middle position is hum cancelling. I'm not sure, but it might work out that the neck cancels fairly well with a Strat middle. Just wire it straight in - they are based on the Gibby P90s, so are drop in replacements for most humbuckers, just minus the coil cutting option. If you do run into any issues, it will be a simple phase thing, quickly sorted just by swapping the two conductor wires around.

The EJ Customs sounds a bit too Strat-ty, if that makes sense?

Not really. They have lots of high end, but it's more Gretschy "chime" than Strat "spank" (if that makes sense).

AlanRatcliffe

Gearhead wrote: Good cavity shielding takes away much of the hum on any single coil guitar.

The wiring is going to be exactly like with any other single coil eh.

Any other Gibson-style single coil - reverse polarity from Fender-style singles. AFAIK, the middle pickups on the IBZ are all Gibson polarity though, so I don't think he'll run into issues.

kitaarpeer

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
kitaarpeer wrote: unfortunately you have immaculate (expensive) taste
Lawks, don't I know it! I often wish I didn't. ? But I know that I'm not going to be happy until I get something really good that compliments the guitar, so just going straight to the good stuff usually saves me money in the long run.

Hehehe oh I can imagine...that's the only thing about the Rebel 90s...I'm afraid that I wont be happy with them? I've read a lot about Toneriders on this forum, and they sound decent quality though. It just feels like a huge move going from a bucker (and all the sustain and balls and feedback (which I love)) to a P90 type. I know it isn't as drastic as going to a single coil, but still :-\

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
The EJ Customs sounds a bit too Strat-ty, if that makes sense?
Not really. They have lots of high end, but it's more Gretschy "chime" than Strat "spank" (if that makes sense).

Hehe makes sense! I'll have to youtube a bit more before I can decide ?