Minor pentatonic finger positions

deefstes

I think it's time I really get to grok this minor pentatonic thing. I've been using it a lot but I tend to stick mostly to position 1 and some very cool hybrid of positions 5, 1 and 2 that Ryanguit once taught me.

I'm starting to realise now that I need to improve my scales significantly and I've decided to start working on all 5 positions of the minor pentatonic. I want to make sure though that I practice them correctly so I thought I'd turn to the forum for advice. Below are diagrams of the five positions of the minor pentatonic (red indicates root note). I'd like to know how you guys would suggest I finger them.

Position 1:[br]So my understanding is that the proper fingering for this position, and the one I'm fairly comfortable playing by now, would be 1,4,1,3,1,3,1,3,1,4,1,4 (starting at the lowest note and ending on the highest). My pinky is still a bit dumb so I'm often temped to use the third finger in stead but I'm forcing myself to use the pinky and it is improving. I do suspect though that using the third finger as opposed to the fourth (especially on the two higher string) might be of value for the purposes of bending.[br][br]I'm not specifically struggling with this one but if you have anything to add I'd be grateful to hear.

Position 2:[br]So this is the one that I'm currently working on and of all five it's the one that's giving me the most problems. I actually wish some guitar wizard will tell me "don't worry about position 2, it's useless and you won't be a worse guitarist if you don't know it".[br][br]Seeing as that's not going to happen, help me out here please. My understanding is that the fingering for this one should be (again starting at the lowest note) 2,4,1,4,1,4,1,3,2,4,2,4[br][br]I know the scale should be started and finished on the root note but I'm giving the fingering starting at the lowest note just for simplicity. The problem I have with the above fingering is that my pinky is still very dumb and I seem to struggle specifically on the low E string and again on the B and high E strings. Again, I'm not sure it makes sense to play the high E (or B) string with your pinky as you'd have a hard time bending that note but let's rather hear what you guys think. While toggling between my second and fourth fingers on the low E string is a bit of an awkward action at this stage, I'm sure it will improve with practice but it also makes sense as it frees up your 1st finger to be ready on that A string for the next note.

Position 3:[br]OK, I guess this one is fairly easy. My understanding of the fingering is 1,3,1,3,1,3,1,3,1,4,1,3. Any comments?

Position 4:[br]This is another position which I'm not very comfortable with at all. My understanding of the fingering is 1,4,1,4,1,3,1,3,2,4,1,4. Again, that toggling between 2nd and 4th fingers (on the B string) is what bothers me most. Like I said, I know I just need to practice that. I just want to make sure that I cement the scale in the right way and not learn it the wrong way.

Position 5:[br]I like this position, perhaps my second favourite, but I'm not sure I'm playing it correctly. So far I've been using my 1st and 3rd fingers all the way from bottom to top. That becomes a problem when I'm low down on the neck though and the frets are a bit too far apart for that. Should I be using different fingers only when I'm lower down on the neck or should I rather teach myself different fingering and use it regardless of where I play the scale? If so, what fingering should I use?[br][br]One option would be 1,3,1,3,1,4,1,4,1,3,1,3 which involves more movement of the hand with the 1st finger switching between frets and the 3rd and 4th fingers taking turns to fret the upper fret.[br][br]Another option would be 2,4,2,4,1,4,1,4,2,4,2,4 which leaves the hand more or less in one position with each finger staying on its own fret but it involves a scary amount of toggling between the 2nd and 4th fingers.[br][br]How do you guys play it?

So that's it. Chatter away. I'm all ears.

Oh, and thanks in advance.

FruitarGeek

Very interesting.. Look, for me, my philospophy is that play it the way that is most comfortable and effective for you. Heck, even if you want to slide your your first finger to all the points. Might be very impractical, and slow, but if it works for you and you can compete on the same level with others.. than why not..

However, having said that.. I too like to know the proper fingering so as to try learn the proper way, before I learn it my way. Your fingerings for all positions seem the same as mine, except for 2. Position 3 - I'm not sure if you did a typo there, but I play it 2,4|2,4|2,4|1,4|1,4 (jump one fret up with your hand)|1,3

Position 5, I use the 2,4|2,4| approach, mainly because my hand stays in one place.

On a similiar topic, when you play the major scale, its quite a stretch. Do you use your middle finger or ring finger to play the second note? I've learnt to use my middle finger so I can stretch it, and coming back is easier

Sebber

My advice would be: don't look to anchor your fretting hand's index finger on a certain fret. Ok, doing so may well assist in learning these scale "shapes", but I've got to say that when I set out learning pentatonics I had the same idea: "index finger goes here!" and it took me a very long time to "unlearn" because I hadn't effectively learned to move my fretting hand, or the positioning of my index finger, fast enough to cater for non-position 1 shapes, as well as moving between shapes.

Oh and everyone's got a dumbass pinky, the more you use it, the better it'll get. Also, at some stage you'll get good enough with pentatonics that choosing what finger you use to fret each note with becomes an important decision, depending on what you plan to do with each note as and when you fret it (i.e. bend, vibrato or whatever). Obviously when learning it helps to have a structured approach, make sure you include moving between these different positions in your practice routine, don't just practice each position in isolation.

Tokai-SA

Another cool idea is to practise the positions only using 2 strings at a time.
For example, just the E and B strings, sliding through the positions just using those two strings.
Then add the G string,, etc, etc.

Doing it this way programs your fingers/brain to be able to move/slide anywhere on the neck instantly when soloing.

If you start learning to play the scale from the low E all the way down to the high E, you can end up developing a habit of sounding like you're playing scales when you solo, instead of just sounding 'smart'.

chris77

I have no idea ? I mainly use positions 1,2 and 5 depending on where I am on the fretboard, but how I finger them? No idea. I guess I don't really think about it anymore. I use my pinky a lot, but when I bend it is ussually with my ring finger, regardless of what note it is. I also slide a lot between notes, but that depends on the tempo and what I'm playing more than anything else.
A lot also depends on what your goals are. If you want to shred like a mofo then the basics are vital and you will have to learn them the correct way to avoid bad habits that will hamper speed and accuracy as you progress. Best to get a good mentor or a couple of instruction vids to assist you with your practice regime then. There are no shortcuts if you want to be a good player of fast music.
Otherwise, just get a couple of generic bactracks and jam jam jam. You'll soon figure out what works best for you and start playing the scales without even thinking about it.

Bob-Dubery

chris77 wrote: Otherwise, just get a couple of generic bactracks and jam jam jam. You'll soon figure out what works best for you and start playing the scales without even thinking about it.

Or get a looper and lay down a simple rhythm part, start up the loop and play over that.

Squonk

Tuxplayer and Guitarpro have some tracks that you can use to practice modes and scales. You can also create the tracks yourself.

arjunmenon

Interesting points. I personally don't have a favourite (used to though).
The minute you have one, you kind of tend to stick to it.

I used something that i learnt in a Shawn Lane video to break out of it. Take the first 5 notes of the pentatonic, then play those notes in the same sequence in different octaves. This makes you move diagonally up the fretboard.
Steve Morse suggests you learn the pentatonic on each string individually (this allows you to throw in some wide open string intervals).
Guthrie Govan in his book Creative Guitar Techniques suggests super-imposing the C-A-G-E-D system when you consider pentatonics. The logic is that regardless of where you are on the fretboard you'll be able to find the pentatonic in very little time.
Lastly, Frank Gambale (in an old Guitar Techniques video) suggests breaking the pentatonic into 1 note per string examples, making it easier to sweep-pick/arpeggiate it. Oddly, you might end up using 2 notes on a particular string because of ergonomics.

Hope this adds to the knowledge base.

+1 on Tokai's suggestion. It should help develop alternate picking at the same time.

deefstes

Thanks for all the inputs guys, I appreciate it. Just so you know, you're not making my life any easier though, you're making it harder ?. Practice the positions using only 2 strings at a time, play 5 notes of the pentatonic in different octaves, superimpose the CAGED system, etc. Sjoe, it all sounds a little advanced ???

Shouldn't I first get the 5 positions of the minor pentatonic cemented before I start mixing them up and breaking them down?

As for fingering, am I hearing you guys correctly that I shouldn't force myself to use a specific fingering for each position? Would a good way of practising it perhaps be to choose one fingering and run over the scale in a position for half an hour, then choose a different fingering and run over the same scale in the same position for another 30 minutes? My hope is to get these 5 positions absolutely cemented in my brain. If you're saying that I'll fall into a rut that'll be hard to get out of by subscribing to very specific finger positions, the above sounds like it might help cementing the positions and their shapes, if not the fingers.

Also, if I choose the fingering that feels more comfortable to me I will:
a) end up never using my pinky and it will remain as dumb as it is, and
b) quickly get to a point where I just can't speed up my scales simply because I'm using a restrictive fingering.

Right? Wrong?

arjunmenon

deefstes wrote: Thanks for all the inputs guys, I appreciate it. Just so you know, you're not making my life any easier though, you're making it harder ?. Practice the positions using only 2 strings at a time, play 5 notes of the pentatonic in different octaves, superimpose the CAGED system, etc. Sjoe, it all sounds a little advanced ???

Shouldn't I first get the 5 positions of the minor pentatonic cemented before I start mixing them up and breaking them down?

As for fingering, am I hearing you guys correctly that I shouldn't force myself to use a specific fingering for each position? Would a good way of practising it perhaps be to choose one fingering and run over the scale in a position for half an hour, then choose a different fingering and run over the same scale in the same position for another 30 minutes? My hope is to get these 5 positions absolutely cemented in my brain. If you're saying that I'll fall into a rut that'll be hard to get out of by subscribing to very specific finger positions, the above sounds like it might help cementing the positions and their shapes, if not the fingers.

Also, if I choose the fingering that feels more comfortable to me I will:
a) end up never using my pinky and it will remain as dumb as it is, and
b) quickly get to a point where I just can't speed up my scales simply because I'm using a restrictive fingering.

Right? Wrong?

I realized that as soon as i posted.
To answer your questions, the answer is right & wrong. Right, because any digit you choose to not use ends up getting lazy. And wrong, because you should check out Django.
My reasoning is that you shouldn't be relying exclusively on one way of fingering. The notes you want to play should determine which fingers you're going to use. Once that's sorted, then you find the most comfortable way to play it bearing in mind your destination (i.e. which group of notes you're headed to). Then comes the "Zen" bit of taking the path of least resistance. End result : Fluid Pentatonics.
I know it sounds a bit @n@l, but i find that scrutinizing technique in conjunction with musical goals helps me get the results i'm looking for.

To kinda push you in the right direction (hopefully :-[ ) I'd say start by applying the 1 finger per fret rule. So for position 1, you'd end up working out your index, ring & pinky. Using the same rule, as you hit the highest note in position 1, use the pinky to slide to the highest note in position 2 and work your way back up position 2. Once you're at the lowest note in position 2, slide up to the lowest note in position 3. Now, work your way up position 3...and repeat until position 5. Then start at position 5 and work backwards to position 1.

Hope this makes sense.

deefstes

Arjun Menon wrote: To kinda push you in the right direction (hopefully :-[ ) I'd say start by applying the 1 finger per fret rule. So for position 1, you'd end up working out your index, ring & pinky. Using the same rule, as you hit the highest note in position 1, use the pinky to slide to the highest note in position 2 and work your way back up position 2. Once you're at the lowest note in position 2, slide up to the lowest note in position 3. Now, work your way up position 3...and repeat until position 5. Then start at position 5 and work backwards to position 1.

Hope this makes sense.

Thanks, that sounds like a good exercise. I'm totalling giving that one a go.

jt

I realise you want to learn the pentatonics but isn't your main issue finger independence? Wouldn't the variations of the typical 1,2,3,4 (- 2,3,4,1 - 3,4,1,2 - 4,1,2,3 as an example) be more beneficial as to all the fingers' independence? I think if you could do those variations smoothly then the pentatonics shouldn't be too hard to finger with any combo. Also, as your hand stays stationary. One fret per finger, your index should be able to go one note higher and your pinky should be able to go one note lower down the fretboard. So in other words, for position five you should be able (with practice) to have the comfortable fingerings of- 1,3 1,3 1,3 1,3 1,3 in addition to 2,4 2,4 2,4 2,4 2,4 2,4 . I think its good to have this facility for if you wanted to do three note per string pentatonics. Does this make sense and is it reasonable?

evolucian

Yeah, all the stuff said was great. And your fingerings are correct. I would, however, like to add something. Playing mindlessly trying to learn a pentatonic shape is kind of damaging. Try instead to see the chords within the pentatonics you are playing.

For instance, that 2nd position you hate/loathe/despise/cast into the fiery pit - well, that is very very useful in country. It perfectly outlines the major chord (6 string bar) with adequate secondary notes to flavour. Within those they fill in the blanks and thats where you might find some of those beautiful chromatic runs that sound like music and not - chromatic runs ala Satanist Petrucci.

One final puzzle - a chord is a scale and a scale is a chord. Enjoy ?

arjunmenon

evolucian wrote: For instance, that 2nd position you hate/loathe/despise/cast into the fiery pit - well, that is very very useful in country. It perfectly outlines the major chord (6 string bar) with adequate secondary notes to flavour. Within those they fill in the blanks and thats where you might find some of those beautiful chromatic runs that sound like music and not - chromatic runs ala Satanist Petrucci.

? You're cruisin for a bruisin here.
Your point actually brought Steve Morse to mind.

kayDUB

jt wrote: I realise you want to learn the pentatonics but isn't your main issue finger independence? Wouldn't the variations of the typical 1,2,3,4 (- 2,3,4,1 - 3,4,1,2 - 4,1,2,3 as an example) be more beneficial as to all the fingers' independence? I think if you could do those variations smoothly then the pentatonics shouldn't be too hard to finger with any combo. Also, as your hand stays stationary. One fret per finger, your index should be able to go one note higher and your pinky should be able to go one note lower down the fretboard. So in other words, for position five you should be able (with practice) to have the comfortable fingerings of- 1,3 1,3 1,3 1,3 1,3 in addition to 2,4 2,4 2,4 2,4 2,4 2,4 . I think its good to have this facility for if you wanted to do three note per string pentatonics. Does this make sense and is it reasonable?

If I understand you correctly here, I second this. It's something Arjun showed me and I found it really loosens up my fingers and lets them gain independence.
Basically start on fret 1, and play different random combinations of 1,2,3,4 from low E to high E and back, then move to fret 2.

deefstes

kayDUB wrote:
jt wrote: I realise you want to learn the pentatonics but isn't your main issue finger independence? Wouldn't the variations of the typical 1,2,3,4 (- 2,3,4,1 - 3,4,1,2 - 4,1,2,3 as an example) be more beneficial as to all the fingers' independence? I think if you could do those variations smoothly then the pentatonics shouldn't be too hard to finger with any combo. Also, as your hand stays stationary. One fret per finger, your index should be able to go one note higher and your pinky should be able to go one note lower down the fretboard. So in other words, for position five you should be able (with practice) to have the comfortable fingerings of- 1,3 1,3 1,3 1,3 1,3 in addition to 2,4 2,4 2,4 2,4 2,4 2,4 . I think its good to have this facility for if you wanted to do three note per string pentatonics. Does this make sense and is it reasonable?
If I understand you correctly here, I second this. It's something Arjun showed me and I found it really loosens up my fingers and lets them gain independence.
Basically start on fret 1, and play different random combinations of 1,2,3,4 from low E to high E and back, then move to fret 2.

OK, I must be a bit dof because I don't think I understand this. Could you describe it again please?

kayDUB

Ok, I'll try again ?

First time:
start on fret 1, play frets 1,2,3,4 with fingers 1,2,3,4 on each string starting on the low E. Then move down to A string, D, etc until high E. Then back up the strings in reverse: 4,3,2,1, back to first fret on low E string.
Then repeat with 2nd fret as starting point and then continue down the neck.

second time:
same as first, but play another combination of 1,2,3,4 e.g. 1,3,2,4 or 1,4,2,3 or 2,4,1,3 on each string moving down and back up.

Continue as desired ?

is that clearer?

deefstes

kayDUB wrote: Ok, I'll try again ?

First time:
start on fret 1, play frets 1,2,3,4 with fingers 1,2,3,4 on each string starting on the low E. Then move down to A string, D, etc until high E. Then back up the strings in reverse: 4,3,2,1, back to first fret on low E string.

Hehe, I think I really am dof today because it took me a while to decipher this, but I think I've got it now. What confused me are the words "up", "down", "low" and "high". When you're saying "down", I assume you mean "towards the floor"? I don't know what gave you the impression that I hold my guitar in such a way that moving to the thinner strings means moving towards the floor - I mean, have you considered that I might be playing the guitar behind my head with the thinner strings being closer to the ceiling? ?

But more seriously, I think I understand what you're saying. Just to be clear though, this does not sound like a minor pentatonic anymore but rather a chromatic scale of sorts, amiright? Like this here:

kayDUB wrote: Then repeat with 2nd fret as starting point and then continue down the neck.

So, it's exactly the same exercise as above, only a half tone higher? In other words, my first finger is now on fret 2, second finger on fret 3, third finger on fret 4 and fourth finger on fret 5? In other words, the image above but every note is simply raised one half tone?

kayDUB wrote: second time:
same as first, but play another combination of 1,2,3,4 e.g. 1,3,2,4 or 1,4,2,3 or 2,4,1,3 on each string moving down and back up.

So now, as opposed to a chromatic scale, I'm playing a fairly "random" scale? Like this here:

kayDUB

Haha, Ja sorry bad explaining ?
Shoulda tabbed it, but on my phone.

Yeah you got it! chromatic scale, yes.

It's a finger exercise, not a scale. but will help with finger independence which will help with the different scales.