Recording a Band - together or separate?

TI-Distribution

Hi

I have recently started to delve more seriously into the recording world. I have always had an interest in recording, but it has taken me a number of years to get to a point where I am more or less happy with my home recording setup. Latest motivation is also coming in the form of a Tubescreamer tube amp and a Macbook Pro...

I have also spent many years recording with myself only using Cubase and programs like Battery for drums etc. The past weekend, I hooked up with a drummer and we were trying a bit of recording and I just wondered what recording method out of the following is the best?

1) Record both drums, guitar and bass simultaneously with each instrument as a different track
2) Record each part separately playing along to a click track

I am inclined to think that option 2 would give you a more clinical result but option 1 would sound more alive? also what is the best way to go about option 2? Guitar first with a click track and then drums playing over that next?

I would not like to go with option 1 and find that the tempo at the beginning of track and end is different ...

I must admit i really need to practice more with a click track. I find it simple for basic songs but as soon
as there are stop start bits i struggle without drums.

Any input will be appreciated - i know there is plenty knowledge on this forum ?

P.S feel free to post any links if this topic has been covered before!

majestikc

Try both ways, see what you like best, it's your own home setup so you can screw around and experiment as much as you like for as long as you like which is the beauty of it.

Also depends on what style you're going for, if it's super polished tight metal then the "all together" approach won't work, if it's old school punk then that approach would work much better etc etc

SnapcaseZA

I've done both, and i personally liked the whole band recording at once. It was loads more messy but I just like the feeling.

When we tracked everything separately with drums first it was super tight though, and I'd say 95% of people thought that was better.

Jayhell

I usually do everyone at once and then I start redoing the tracks one at a time. Usually drums go first, then I fix it up, delete the all together track and take it from there. This seems like a lot of work but I find people play better to themselves than to a click. If you are lucky enough to have a drummer that can play the whole song to the click, go for that. Otherwise have everyone play together but only record the drums.

Nitebob

Seeing as I play everything myself, I have to record it seperately...most bands even do this recording live...most is re-record in the studio (with the exception of a couple of bands) This way if you have to re-do guitars, you're not ticking off the rest of the band...

Just my 5c worth...

I can't play to a click...so I lay a basis with hihat, snare and kick. Then record all other music, then go back and spice up the drums....

Then post on the forum...listen to positive criticism and re-visit...

sharonzaz

Most of us would need some sort of a grid, that could
be a click or a drummer.

If you're gonna split up the recording process I would
Recommend using the drummer first.
That is the back bone of a track.

Also, if u struggle playing to a click I found
many ppl like to play with some sort of drum loop
Similar in drive to the actual drum beat you're gonna
Have in the finished track.

AlanRatcliffe

TI Distribution wrote: what recording method out of the following is the best?
1) Record both drums, guitar and bass simultaneously with each instrument as a different track
2) Record each part separately playing along to a click track

3) Record drums and bass simultaneously with drummer playing to click.
- Then other instruments one by one to rhythm section, sans click.
- If tempo changes are needed, program them in before you start.
- If you must record one instrument at a time, always drums first. Very few drummers can punch in drums to an already recorded song - even with a click.
- Getting a natural feel is down to the drummer practising with the click until he is comfortable.

The whole thing about clicks is that it makes sure that the bars in your DAW project line up with the bars of music, which makes editing and automation a breeze as well as letting you time synch FX.

DonovanB

If you haven't practiced with a click, don't record with a click.

reading Keef's autobiography it seems that anything goes when recording. The fact is that you could do something that an engineer will cringe at, but could be the most amazing new technique or sound. It could turn out completely rubbish but if it's not costing you studio time to experiment, who cares?

SnapcaseZA

One thing I found rather annoying with recording, and its happened a few times, was the click needed to be very loud, so loud in fact that it was picked up by the drum mics. Whats the point of that?! No one wants an audible click in the mix.

Has anyone found they had this same issue? We were recording the drummer on his own with a click track through headphones.

AlanRatcliffe

SnapcaseZA wrote: One thing I found rather annoying with recording, and its happened a few times, was the click needed to be very loud, so loud in fact that it was picked up by the drum mics.

That's a sure sign of someone who can't play with a click. The first thing you learn playing with a click is that when you can hear it, you are out of time. The more you practice, the more it becomes second nature.

SnapcaseZA

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
SnapcaseZA wrote: One thing I found rather annoying with recording, and its happened a few times, was the click needed to be very loud, so loud in fact that it was picked up by the drum mics.
That's a sure sign of someone who can't play with a click. The first thing you learn playing with a click is that when you can hear it, you are out of time. The more you practice, the more it becomes second nature.

LOL, fair enough ?

Mo-Facta

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
SnapcaseZA wrote: One thing I found rather annoying with recording, and its happened a few times, was the click needed to be very loud, so loud in fact that it was picked up by the drum mics.
That's a sure sign of someone who can't play with a click. The first thing you learn playing with a click is that when you can hear it, you are out of time. The more you practice, the more it becomes second nature.

Exactly!

Then it disappears and your brain gets worried and then you screw it up again! Learning to ignore the chatter in your head is key to groove. It's very zen.

Cheers ?

Sebber

Nice thread!

We've been doing a bit of garage band (the place we play, not the app) recording over the past few weeks: recording the drum track first while we're all playing together then overdubbing bass, guitars, vocals and the rest. We've had some pretty OK results.

Basically, we're all mic'ed up (guitar and bass SM57s and drums have a condenser for the tops, snare mic and bass drum mic), running into a Yamaha desk. The desk has a USB output but that just has all the desk's active channels pumped out as a single group to the PC, so we group the channels on the desk into 1 of 4 possible groups, each of which goes into a MAYA 44 USB sound card box thing (four channel) connected to the PC (running Windows, not particularly high spec). On the PC is a piece of software we bought, years ago, called n-Track Studio (http://ntrack.com/), which is a pretty easy to use multi-track recording package. n-Track has some basic effects we can add to each recorded channel as required, and we can mix the levels and all that post-recording stuff too. Then all the channels we've recorded (and kept) can be "mixed down" to MP3 or WMA file format.

I'm curious about what gear you guys use. Do you single-mic your amps, or do you use condensers at distance for ambient mic'ing as well? Also, although we're recording/playing as a three-piece at the moment (rhythm guitarist is off on paternity leave), having only 4 output groups on our desk and only 4 inputs on the PC is a major limitation for when we want to record all of us simultaneously, so is there a better desk/sound card/PC combination to be had out there that won't break the bank? Also does anyone else use n-Track? Or even heard of it? Does everyone out there use Cubase because when I looked at Cubase last time it only took about 5 minutes of total confusion before it made my head explode... ideally we'd like something that we could get decent "live" band recordings where we're playing, possibly as a five-piece, and being able to record everyone individually so we can mix it up post-recording.

Malkav

Donovan Banks wrote: If you haven't practiced with a click, don't record.

That's my view right there ?

It won't sound clinical with a metronome if you know how to play in time and can put emphasis on different areas and play in front of or behind the groove confidentally. If you're not very good at keeping in time with a click don't record without one, practice more till you're able to sit comfortably with it, then record with it. Not only does it help keep tempo fluctuations down but can help with automated effects and can help when double tracking guitars in order to fatten up the sound. Also it makes it a lot harder to que in sample replacements etc if you're not in time and in this day and age things like that can be key in achieving a sound that would appeal to the public ?

Bob-Dubery

Chad Adam Browne wrote:
Donovan Banks wrote: If you haven't practiced with a click, don't record.
That's my view right there ?

I don't want to dispute the value of good timing, but surely a click track is not the only way to get there? People have been making records for a long time now, and a lot of good records got made in studios where there was no click track by musicians who hadn't learned to play with a click track.

FruitarGeek

X-rated Bob wrote: I don't want to dispute the value of good timing, but surely a click track is not the only way to get there? People have been making records for a long time now, and a lot of good records got made in studios where there was no click track by musicians who hadn't learned to play with a click track.

Thats true Bob - but then I rate you have to be a seriously good musician. Cause as you know, if you stuff up a part, there is no way of just quickly going to fix it, or to just drop in that part and do it. Have to do the entire take over again. Nothing wrong with that though.

Nitebob

Adrian Rogowski wrote:
X-rated Bob wrote: I don't want to dispute the value of good timing, but surely a click track is not the only way to get there? People have been making records for a long time now, and a lot of good records got made in studios where there was no click track by musicians who hadn't learned to play with a click track.
Thats true Bob - but then I rate you have to be a seriously good musician. Cause as you know, if you stuff up a part, there is no way of just quickly going to fix it, or to just drop in that part and do it. Have to do the entire take over again. Nothing wrong with that though.

Beg to differ....If you didn't change any settings...it can be done. I've done more than one successfull 'drop-in'...

Bob-Dubery

Adrian Rogowski wrote:
X-rated Bob wrote: I don't want to dispute the value of good timing, but surely a click track is not the only way to get there? People have been making records for a long time now, and a lot of good records got made in studios where there was no click track by musicians who hadn't learned to play with a click track.
Thats true Bob - but then I rate you have to be a seriously good musician. Cause as you know, if you stuff up a part, there is no way of just quickly going to fix it, or to just drop in that part and do it. Have to do the entire take over again. Nothing wrong with that though.

OK... so what was going on back in the 60s and 70s? Were there more seriously good musicians then? We know that there were whole albums cut in pretty quick time (Black Sabbath's first being an example). The BBC had a restriction on "needle time" back then so that records didn't take work away from musicians, and so the Beatles and the Stones and just about everybody else went into the BBC studios and recorded live in the studio - and they didn't have the editing software we have now (or any software). Read interviews and biographies of the people who were around then. Joe Boyd tells how Nick Drake would record "live" in studio with an orchestra and be perfect take after take. Pete Townsend, according to Boyd, would be similarly consistently perfect. Chris McGregor laid down the piano solo on Drake's "Poor Boy" in one take, playing live with Drake and the rhythm section. The Beatles got whole albums done in short time (early on, before they started experimenting in the studio). Plenty of examples, and into the next decade as well - Richard & Linda Thompson cut their first album in less than a week (as late as 1981 they repeated the trick with their last album which was cut on a shoe string budget and with the basic tracks and Richard's solos and his share of the lead vocals laid down in 4 days).

I don't think that humanity's ability to play in time has significantly changed in a few decades.

One factor may be the way that engineers worked then. Drop ins required having a spare track on the tape, or using another tape machine and syncing the two recordings or even cutting tapes with a blade and sticking bits back together again. A click track wouldn't have helped them much even if they had one.

So, yes, timing is important, but I don't see that a click track is the only way to get good timing on a studio recording.

AlanRatcliffe

Never underestimate how good some of the old-timey engineers were at splicing tape. ?
A good example: when Cliff Richard was with the Shadows, the band would come in and record a track in one or two takes and then they would lay down anywhere up to 100 different takes of Cliff. The next day an engineer would splice together all the rare bits from different takes where Cliff sang in tune, creating what is known as a "comp track" for the vocals that was more splicing tape than magnetic.

Digital (and even things like SMTE with later tape recordings) makes things like punch ins easy to do, especially where each member of the band records in isolation. But recording with a click track helps immensely and is a super powerful tool when you have MIDI instruments or automated mixing because everything aligns well with the bars of music, making selection, cutting and pasting as well as other editing techniques (of both MIDI and audio) a lot simpler and quicker to do and far more accurate.

So there are different ways of doing it, and first prize always goes to musos who can lay down their tracks in time, regardless of the editing techniques.

BMU

I'm on the tech side - record separately, use a click.

Having said that, there is lots of tight metal out there not done with a click. Andy Sneap mentioned Machinehead dont use it in an interview. The great Angel of Death was not, obviously (1989). It actually changes tempo quite a bit just in the intro.

But then they had Dave Lombardo. Dont try to be brave. Use a click ?