DonovanB
Its not shameful to want Gibson on the headstock. Your guitar, your choice.
Ultimately in the real world you'll get more pats on the back for owning a certain guitar than you do for being an average/good muso
Wizard
Donovan Banks wrote:
Its not shameful to want Gibson on the headstock. Your guitar, your choice.
Ultimately in the real world you'll get more pats on the back for owning a certain guitar than you do for being an average/good muso
Get a therapist.
Re-establish your self-esteem.
Stop craving back pats.
Save a fortune.
(joke)
ZarK
In my experience a good player on average gear will sound significantly better than an average player on pro-gear... I find that the better I get as guitar player, the more I challenge myself to make any guitar/piece of gear sound as good as is possible -sometimes with surprising results... They say: Tone starts with your fingers and after many years I've started to believe 'them'.
Les Paul: Epiphone, Gibson or Tokai? It's important to be sure the guitar has a mahogany body if you're chasing the Les Paul tone. (Preferably with maple cap) With Epiphone LP's, in general I'd wait for a good second-hand Korean example to come along. Modern Epi's vary quite a bit in quality/finish from what I've seen. Exactly the same with Gibson, though... I find most Gibson LP's to be of average build quality and seriously over-priced for what you're getting... Apart from the name and generally sublime tone they offer, there are definitely better quality instruments out there at the same price point... If you're after a Gibson and find a Gem of a Les Paul, I'd say go for it but in my experience you have to weed through quite a number to get to a decent example.
Every Japanese made Tokai LP I've played was superior to both Epihone LP's and Gibson LP's with regards to... well, everything except the name on the headstock... The Gibson LP faded model offers some form of value-for-money but I'd probably end up over-capitalizing on upgrading parts/components to get it more in line with a Standard or Custom... I like the stripped-down look though...
For the money and if you can get over the name on the headstock, I'd go for a stock Japanese-made Tokai LP every time -at very least until Gibson gets their sh!t together and starts offering either significantly better fit and finish or reduced prices on their Les Paul range...
vic
@Alan and Norio....kindly make those icons for "flogging a dead horse" and "running into a brick wall" standard features here on GFSA...... It will get used pretty much.... ?
se7ent7
I know this is an old post, but I want to throw in my 2c having owned Epis and Gibsons:
I have to agree that throwing good pups in a decent Epi, will sound-wise get you within 80-90% of the Gibson's sound quality range.
However, the Gibsons, even the cheaper ones, are generally more keeper guitars than Epi's. It's subtle, but as I always say, when you zoom in (or get used to things), subtle gets big.
With the Gibsons the fine things, like better wood cuts, hardware materials and finish (nitro or satin) do add up and will make you a better player as you learn to appreciate and use the nuances.
One thing that never came up here (unless I missed it) is what SG you were offered at R8k? I'm assuming it's the SG faded (or "special") right?
I think they're great guitars and love the satin finish on them (makes up for a few years of "playing in").
If you go for an Epi, as has been said here, play all of them and choose the best (not that you shouldn't do that with Gibsons as well), and replace the pups (seriously, the stock Epi pickups are not good). Also, SG wise , stay away from the custom - even if you get a good price. Sure they look nice (i'm talking about the ivory one with the three pups), but they have very heavy paint jobs and their thick neck profile and flat wide frets aren't nice. The standard (G400s) are much better players.
PS: One last thing to you or anyone else... You can pick up a SG standard second hand for just over R10k these days. I'd try and sell the second kidney. You probably won't ever feel you have to upgrade your SG (unless you get really rich and go Custom shop or 61 reissue). But with the Faded/Special versions you might still... and the R2k difference between a new SG faded and a used SG standard is a no brainer.
se7ent7
PS: @ Zark... About korean vs Chinese Epis... I've always also heard this and generally found the Korean ones to be good.
However, I've been very impressed by many almost flawless Chinese ones i've seen lately.
I think the Chinese in the Epi factory have found their stride.
Anyone care to comment on that? Should we start a new thread? (there probably has been a few right? ?
Another things... some koreans (90's?) apparently had mahogany caps with maple veneer (anyone know if that's true?). And other spec deviations (compared to USA les pauls)
The Chinese ones seem mostly gibson-correctly spec'd (the basics, woods).
Psean
se7ent7 wrote:
With the Gibsons the fine things, like better wood cuts, hardware materials and finish (nitro or satin) do add up and will make you a better player as you learn to appreciate and use the nuances.
This post generally makes sense but the point about a better finish making you a better player has me a bit confused. I may be taking one piece of a long post out of context though; appologies if I am. I do understand how "using the nuances" of a better guitar can make you a better player; I guess you're talking about a better guitar having better dynamics or being less forgiving and can see how this can benefit one's playing, but the
finish? While it may make a difference to the tone, I really don't see how it can make a difference substantial enough to
really affect your progress as a player.
se7ent7
The finish is part of those naunces ?
Ok, out of the aspects I've mentioned the finish might be the biggest stretch I admit.
But think about this - the finish has an effect on feel (of the neck for instance), and tone (lets not get into the nitro vs poly vs unfinished debate, and assume that could be true). Now it's a small thing, but as part of the sum-of-better-parts, it may contribute to your picking up the guitar more, liking it's tone and feel more, and thus playing it more.
And playing it more will (for most) make them a better player.
Psean
Okay, cool. As a factor contributing to the whole, I can see how that's a possibility. Finishes do affect the feel and tone and I'd definitely play a guitar that feels and sounds better more than one that doesn't, and more playing should lead to better playing. I just think it's a bit of a stretch to say it will make you a better player.
But back to the Epi/Gibson story ?...
DonovanB
I can see the deal with finish making you better. If you love the guitar a lot, and you think it's awesome, you might just play it more.
more playing =more practice=better player.
It's a bit lateral but works for me?
se7ent7
Thanks Donovan ?
I must say it's probably more applicable to acoustics. Barring the unbraced back, I think the satin finish is one of the biggest reasons I think the tone of my Taylor 110 is slightly better than that of my (albeit greenish) 310. It definately makes me want to play it more and lends itself to quicker aging.
Maybe we should start a new thread? ?
Psean
I don't buy this argument completely. I understand the better finish > guitar feels awesome > you play it more reasoning but I really think it's pushing it a bit to say it will make you play better. More motivated maybe, but one could also, for whatever reason, absolutely love a guitar with a not so great finish, or just love playing guitar so much that you're motivated to play and practice consistently on anything that's playable.
Oh, and this doesn't mean I'm not in favour of good quality guitars or that I think the quality of finish shouldn't be a factor to consider when deciding between guitars? I just can't see it having a substantial effect on your playing.
deefstes
killafo wrote:If you can't hear the difference then stick with the Epi (not trying to be rude or condesending in that remark).
Generally, I'd agree with you but there is much more that sets guitars apart than how they sound. One might be more comfortable to play, another might be too heavy, another might be too light, another might have a colour that you like better, another might have a finish that you like better, another might have a decal on the headstock that you like better, another might have better sustain, another might have better tuning stability. The list goes on.
I'm just saying that some people are willing to fork out extra money for things that are unrelated to how the guitar sounds. I'm one of them.
singemonkey
The finish has to be really, really thick to have any chance of affecting the tone. Even then it's pretty debateable - but some swear that theirs has improved after stripping a quarter inch of poly.
SG Standards, Fadeds, and Specials (the two P90 ones?), are some of the guitars I consider pretty good value from Gibson. I'd choose the SG Classic Faded. An attractive, P90 SG with the late '60s body/neck-join if I was looking to own a Gibson at a reasonable price and went for an SG (although I think the Flying V faded is Gibson's best value guitar bar none).
http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/SG/Gibson-USA/SG-Classic-Faded.aspx
If finish is an issue, that's in the Faded's favour, since the finish on them is very thin. Otherwise they're pretty similar. Both Standards and Specials/Fadeds now have three piece bodies. I don't know about the latest batch of Epi SGs, but the older ones I've played have really felt like beginner's guitars.
Oh. This is also interesting - an Epi with the early '60s body shape (deep bevels in the cutaways). Never seen that before. Pretty cool. And a wrap tail too. One of these babies with a set of tonerider P90s (which are top notch pickups) would be pretty good...
http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/SG/Epiphone/Ltd-Ed-50th-Anniversary-1961-SG-Special.aspx
