Neon-Gecko
mmm, tricky one that. I'd maybe go for a reduced thinned coat to start with. Normally 20% thinner is mixed into 2K. Try 10% instead and maybe apply the first lot with a brush to work it into the pores. Try and get it on as thick as possible, leaving 10 minutes flash time between coats and get around 3 - 4 coats on. If it runs slightly, it'll sand out before the next application.
I'm with gearhead on not sanding through to the wood with figured, stained woods.
Clint-Green
Awesome advice, thanks so much, man! So just to confirm, the thinners shouldn't affect the cold glue? Just want to make 110% sure...the veneer cost a fortune, I'll cry like a baby if it lifts or I sand through it :/
Gearhead
Thinners will not affect hardened cold glue, otherwise it would not be used by so many luthiers. Your biggest issue with cold glue is that it is not hard itself. This makes it difficult to cover up gaps between the top and the body slab; get you top to really really sit well on the glue face (you can never have enough clamps) and prep the faces well without leaving dents bumps scratches.
Clint-Green
Thanks Gearhead...it sounds logical of course but one can never be too sure ?
Neon Gecko, I've joined your BvanS Facebook page and taken a look at some of the photos; some KILLER work there, man, very nicely done!
Neon-Gecko
Clint Green wrote:
Neon Gecko, I've joined your BvanS Facebook page and taken a look at some of the photos; some KILLER work there, man, very nicely done!
Thanks mate, just holla if you need more info...
Clint-Green
Thanks dude, will do...I'm pretty sure I'll have a bunch more questions before my project is done ?
Airguitar
Years ago there was a place in Germiston that sold veneers in all kinds of exotic woods. I can't remember the name but maybe google it??
Clint-Green
Thanks Airguitar...there are a few that pop up on Google but I can't find any that appear to be suitable for a guitar top. I suppose it would be best to actually go to these places to see what they have to offer but I'm all the way in East London (Eastern Cape). Anyhoo, my stuff is on it's way, I'm hoping it'll get here later this week or next week...can't freakin wait, I'm dying to take a few days' leave from work and get this project started!
Neon Gecko, what would you recommend more, 2k or polyurethane? I suppose the 2k will dry a lot quicker since as mentioned before it cures through a chemical process and not just from the evaporation or a solvent which can take weeks...? I know that there's a lot of debate about whether certain finishes affect the tone on an electric guitar or not.
Neon-Gecko
We prefer 2K as it is readily available though out the country, it comes in millions of colours and a host of finishes, such as solid plain colours, Pearls, metallic’s through to some awesome colour changing, heat reactive, glow-in-the-dark and more!. We have yet to find a steady supplier of spray-able, clear polyurethane so we don’t even consider it..
Any finish will affect tone, but the idea is to keep the finish as thin as possible. For instance we strive to keep our finish thinner than a sheet of A4 copy paper (that's sealer and colour included). If we can see a thicker film than said A4 paper at the neck pocket, it all comes off and we start again.
Clint-Green
2k it is then ? From what I've read, the sanding sealer (or in this case, the coats of 2k being used as sanding sealer) is pretty much all sanded off anyway. Neck pocket and pup cavities will be masked off so I'll be able to see from there exactly how thick my finish is.
On a side note, I'm also going to move the volume knob down about an inch because my pinky keeps catching it when I'm speedpicking on the bottom e string, so I will plug the original hole with a piece of dowel, fill with some epoxy and sand flush before glueing on the veneer. I plan on clamping the guitar face down to a piece of plywood or scrap pine when I drill the holes for the vol, tone and toggle switch to stop the veneer from ripping.
Your advice has been invaluable, bro, thank you so much!
Clint-Green
Ok, got my parcel from Stew-Mac today (damn, that was quick!)...
I was well excited until I opened the box and saw that the veneers are about 7mm thick!! What do I do now?? It's going on and Ibanez RG570 so I need it to be pliable enough to bend over the (strat-style) arm contour. Can I take it to Timber City or somewhere to have it thicknessed or something like that? One of the boards is also not flat, it's quite cupped. I'm crapping myself about taking a machine to it because these things cost me almost 900 bucks including shipping, VAT and duty...
Help!!! S.O.S!!! Mayday!!! ???
Airguitar
I'd advise against taking it to timber city as their thicknessers work very hard and could rip the wood. Try to find a carpentry place that will take care and reduce it slowly over several passes. In fact it would be best to keep as much maple as possible and maybe thickness down the body top instead.
Clint-Green
The only problem is that I need the veneer to be thin enough for it to bend to the arm contuour at the top of the body (where your right forearm rests on the front of the guitar). I am considering sanding it (yep, it's going to be a lot of work but will probably be my safest option) to about 1.5mm. I will also need to plane the edge where the veneers will join so that they are true, as they are not 100% straight. I found this on the net where they sanded a 3mm veneer down to 1.5mm after planing the edges true:
http://www.guitarmagazine.co.uk/articles/refinishing-your-guitar/page2/
The big issue now though, is how to get the warped piece nice and flat before I plane and sand...
Gearhead
The sides you must rout with a straightedge guide for the router. You can plane if you are handy with a planer, but I would recommend routing figured Maple because of the grain running in and out of plane every couple of mm.
With the thickness it is now, you must steam the bend in before glueing. If you sand down to less than 4mm or something thereabouts, you will not have enough stiffness to clamp the top flatly and if it is not flat, you will then need to sand it flat. With 1.5mm you will then not have enough thickness to sand at all.
Clamp two pieces of wood on both sides of the bend area, one above and one below on either side, four in total. The clamps give you leverage to hand bend the wood and the blocks of wood make sure the bend is parallel (well, they do if you put them parallel) as opposed to conical. The process of bending I mentioned in another thread last week. You can bend forward until you hit the angle of your body blank, if you overbend you can also bend back. By applying the heat evenly across the surface between the blocks, you make sure you get a constant radius.
It might be worthwhile practicing on some other pieces of Maple or even other woods to get the hang of it. Bending is not hard at all, but experience is essential.
Clint-Green
Thanks Gearhead!
Eish, this is now an entirely different ball game to what I was originally intending...I've read loads of tutorials where they use 1.5mm veneers, wood glue and clamps or bags of sand to weigh it down, that's what I thought I was getting, but now it looks like I'm going to have to do a drop-top...
I'm going to have to do some practicing this weekend, I saw a post on Sevenstring.org where a guy claims he used some water applied to the wood, a sheet of foil and a household iron. He says he had to reapply the water and the iron a few times. Would this work as well?
Another big issue for me now, is the fact that I'll have to have the body thicknessed to the point where the control cavity will run through to the front of the guitar and will have to be covered by the veneer alone since it's routed leaving only about 2.5mm on front (not sure if I'm making sense). So basically all of the wood where the toggle switch and vol/tone knobs are mounted will be gone, so I would have to mount them on the veneer.
So should I have the body thicknessed, taking 4mm off the top, then once I've glued the veneer on, sand it down until the body is back to it's original thickness (leaving 4mm of veneer on top, basically)? I feel I may be in way over my head now, again I'm a total newb ?
Gearhead
Take my opinion for what it is - an opinion. If there are guys who do use 1.5mm and they say they have made it work, that's another opinion on how it's done. I guess what I'm saying is that there is always another way, but the drop top would be mine.
The sand bag trick might work to distribute the pressure evenly, but I would be worried about the veneer being pushed into cavities. You will in any case not be able to see what you are doing for the bag. Just please do not soak the veneer in water, this would soften it and increase chances of the veneer tearing. The wet does not help bending, steam or rather its heat does.
It is not hard to put the controls in 4-6mm Maple, just mark up before thicknessing where they were.
The thickness of the guit is only essential by the neck pocket and if the bridge is top mount like on a Strat. Even then you can get away with a few mm as long as there is stroke on the height adjust of the saddles. Thicknessing a few mm before glueing and then one more mm after glueing might be a good idea.
Clint-Green
Sorry Gearhead, I think you misunderstood my last post; I wasn't disagreeing with what you said at all, I was just saying that I had thought that I was getting myself into a simple laminate job. To be honest I had never even heard of a drop top until I Googled "steam bending wood) after reading your post...haha
Now that you mention it though, I do think that it will be a better option, except I don't have access to a router so I'll have to take things really slowly and work very, very carefully, doing it the old-fashioned way by hand.
I'm excited about the project but scared at the same time because although this axe is a real beater, I'm in love with it. It just has some sort of magic to it, I've been playing it with worn-out frets for a few months now and it still plays like a dream. Well it did, it's in pieces now, so the restoration has officially begun ?
Clint-Green
Did my very first refret this weekend on my RG, didn't come out too bad (could have been better, some of the frets didn't seat quite the way I wanted them to but still decent for a first timer). I reassembled the guitar last night to check the playability and I'm proud to report that she now gets just under 1.5mm action at the 12th fret with some fret buzz that I can live with ?
Next up I will practice steam bending some scrap plywood I got from a local shop before tackling my pricey piece of flamed maple.
Neon-Gecko
Clint Green wrote:
Next up I will practice steam bending some scrap plywood I got from a local shop before tackling my pricey piece of flamed maple.
I'm speaking under correction here, but I doubt whether ply would react to steam in the same manner as maple would, seen as the layered plies have the grain running at zero and ninety degrees for added strength. There is also the possibility that the adhesive may soften under the applied heat and delaminate.
See if you can’t find an off cut of kiaat or similar from a local cabinet workshop or something in your area to experiment with.
Clint-Green
I thought the ply might be an issue, I tried to bend a piece last week to make a neck caul for my refret (also just to experiment a bit) and I spent an hour on it with my steam iron set at full, spritzing water over the surface as the board dried out and it wouldn't budge!
I will see if I can get hold of something else, the wood shop I got this from are quite generous with their offcuts ? Thanks Neon Gecko!
