Anyone know anything about one mic recording?

singemonkey

I'm very keen to try one microphone recording some time soon - the original approach to recording until the end of the '50s I think. Principle being: set up a condenser at vocal height, and mix by moving instruments/amplifiers closer or further, left or right, to create the relative levels.

Does anybody have experience with this technique or know any good resources on the subject. I gather it's making a comeback in bluegrass recording.

Averatu

We messed with it a bit. Its all about placement really, finding the sweet spot where you have a good balance, which takes time. We ended up going with a 3 mic setup, 2 stereo, one off axis for mono.
I read an interview with Les Claypool. Some of the drum recordings on the Primus Albums he used one mic, just spending time finding the best placement.

singemonkey

Averatu wrote: We messed with it a bit. Its all about placement really, finding the sweet spot where you have a good balance, which takes time. We ended up going with a 3 mic setup, 2 stereo, one off axis for mono.
I read an interview with Les Claypool. Some of the drum recordings on the Primus Albums he used one mic, just spending time finding the best placement.

I've seen that there are a few vids on one mic drum kit recording. Problem I see is that if you're recording a band with one mic, it more or less precludes drums. I reckon 'cos (a) they're going to reverberate around the room something crazy - which is kind of ok for the other instruments for a low fi take, but I reckon the rumble from the drums would be a bit nuts - and (b) because the kick would be inaudible.

So I figure that if I used drums, I'd want a 2nd mic in the kick. My thinking at the moment though is simply to leave drums. I want - as I'm thinking about it now - 1 upright piano, one vox, one lead guitar, one rhythm guitar, and one electric bass.

I'm thinking that there's going to be a lot of room sound, right? So if the amps are quite far from the mics they're going to carry a lot of it. So I'm wondering what sort of room I should favour, and what I can expect the distance to do to the guitar and bass sound.

Any tips for finding that sweet spot?

Averatu

Trial and error? A room with a fairly neutral sound is best, that spells good acoustics, this will make life soo much easier. As you say, reverb is a problem. So are standing waves.

AlanRatcliffe

First and foremost you need an omnidirectional mic. Then you need a good sounding room and the band have to practice the technique. It does kind of preclude kit drums unless you have a soft player and can put him a ways off from the mic somewhere - probably the main reason recording moved away from single mic. ? Bluegrass is perfect because it's all handheld instruments and vocals.

The other main way music was recorded in the 50's is still used today for classical recordings: the Decca tree (and variations).

Bob-Dubery

Averatu wrote: Trial and error? A room with a fairly neutral sound is best, that spells good acoustics, this will make life soo much easier.

It means you'll have to add reverb later.

There's another school of thought, which I think is rare these days, which embraces the room sound. The Stones used to go looking for rooms with a good sound. Joe Boyd talks about studios with good sounds. He particularly liked Sound Techniques in London. That had three different roof levels, and thus different parts of the room would have different qualities. Engineers would move musicians around to different parts of the room to get different sounds.

I think it's still a game that you can play, especially when doing the sort of old-fashioned recording that Singe is contemplating, but you need a pair of ears that you can trust.

Averatu

X-rated Bob wrote:
Averatu wrote: Trial and error? A room with a fairly neutral sound is best, that spells good acoustics, this will make life soo much easier.
It means you'll have to add reverb later.

There's another school of thought, which I think is rare these days, which embraces the room sound. The Stones used to go looking for rooms with a good sound. Joe Boyd talks about studios with good sounds. He particularly liked Sound Techniques in London. That had three different roof levels, and thus different parts of the room would have different qualities. Engineers would move musicians around to different parts of the room to get different sounds.

I think it's still a game that you can play, especially when doing the sort of old-fashioned recording that Singe is contemplating, but you need a pair of ears that you can trust.

The reverb related to the acoustics of a room can cause phasing. And not just the good type. Bass resonance is the most commo problem associated with acoustics. Then you have to consider which of those reflections the mic will pick up. You could end up with a 'band in a bathroom' sound. The guys in the early part of the last century understood these dynamics, it was the way things wher done, today everyone wants to gooi a plugin to fix it.

singemonkey

What should I listen for to avoid these standing waves? I hear that the room should be reasonably neutral - even I am looking for a good room sound - to avoid acoustic problems.

What are some characteristics of such rooms? Should I be looking away from rooms with too much bare wall? High ceilings? Low ceilings?

The nice thing is that there's a near infinite number of rooms in CT with an upright piano in them, and I particularly don't want a particularly good piano. I don't even need one that's perfectly in tune (as long as it's not way out).

Averatu

singemonkey wrote: What should I listen for to avoid these standing waves? I hear that the room should be reasonably neutral - even I am looking for a good room sound - to avoid acoustic problems.

What are some characteristics of such rooms? Should I be looking away from rooms with too much bare wall? High ceilings? Low ceilings?

The nice thing is that there's a near infinite number of rooms in CT with an upright piano in them, and I particularly don't want a particularly good piano. I don't even need one that's perfectly in tune (as long as it's not way out).

You cant hear standing waves.
They are the waves that fit the length, width and height of the room. They either amplify, or phase. By the size of a normal room its in the bass register.
Have you ever played a gig or rehearsal where you cant hear the low notes on the bass no matter how loud you crank it? Bass phase.
Have you ever entered a room and closed the door, and the room goes 'booooooooom'? Bass resonance.

makepeace

from my understanding, a standing wave is effectively a resonant harmonic - or feedback, which could manifest constructively or destructively. so surely its not so that you can't hear standing waves implicitly. in this context you're talking about negative feedback as a result of the tendencies of a room, ie the destructive interference between the sustained original wave of the note being played and the reflected wave bouncing off the walls. it could also manifest constructively, which is also a problem, as you'll end up amplifying your original wave.

AlanRatcliffe

Every room has standing waves - they are a result of the room modes. The problematic ones are in the low end, where they cause areas in the room where certain bass notes are emphasized or cancelled. The only ways to avoid them are: to use an anechoic chamber (and even then, the lower frequencies are difficult to trap effectively without hundreds of kilos of damping material); or create an RFZ room (which means major construction, but results in a "sweet spot" for listening/miking).

The usual approach to coping with them in recording is simple - record in larger rooms that are known to sound good and move your mics around until you find a placement that sounds equally good.

If you want to get all scientific about it, look into room ratios - if the ratio of the dimensions of the room to one another are good, the room modes will be evenly distributed, which results in a smoother room response. You can then predict the few specific problem frequencies and construct bass trapping to cope with those frequencies specifically. There is also software that will help you analyze a room based on it's size and recommend dimension changes (usually just a single false wall is enough) and positioning of sound sources and mics

Good info on room ratios: http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?p=5570
Room mode calculator: http://www.marktaw.com/recording/Acoustics/RoomModeStandingWaveCalcu.html

OH, and do yourself a favour and look into the Decca tree I mentioned earlier - while it is three mics, it will make your life a lot easier and your recordings a lot better.

singemonkey

Thanks for all this. Take home message seems to be: listen to the room and hear if it sounds good. Place mic where it continues to sound good.

Alan, I did check out the Decca Tree but, apart from the slightly added complexity, won't it make it trickier to arrange the instruments given the bleed and the necessity of keeping the louder amplifiers well back?

Also, I'll admit, the idea of the recording process being - set up mic. play. is really appealing. This is low-fi kinda stuff. And I assume that I'm going to get some kinds of frequency losses, and increased reverb from the amps that are way away from the mic compared to the vocal and piano.

Well. I'll give this stuff a shot after March - probably in winter - and we can see what we learn from my clueless experiments.

AlanRatcliffe

Key is getting it to sound good in the room. Then you simply capture that sound.

And I know it's nowhere as easy as it sounds - one to three mic recording is actually the pinnacle of the recording art. That's the reason isolation, heavy room damping, close miking and individual tracking techniques took over for recording - it takes more equipment, but is far easier to get good results.

singemonkey

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Key is getting it to sound good in the room. Then you simply capture that sound.

I guess what I'd still like some advice on is... what should I look for in a room? Or should I just listen to as many as possible. What kind of tests would you do? Sing a line? Tongue-clicks? How do I get a sense of how a room's going to respond to being full of instruments?

This bluegrass band, Blacksmith, sound amazing acoustically in the front-room of my cousin's restaurant - a typical victorian place with high ceilings and wooden floors - and they have an upright in another room. Hmm...

AlanRatcliffe

You can tell a lot by clapping your hands once and listening carefully to the length and character of the reverb and echo. A hand clap is a surprisingly wide bandwidth test impulse. ?

It does take some time and practice at listening to learn exactly what to listen for, but it's well worth developing your ears. A bit of time and practice and they will become the most sensitive acoustic analysis tool you will ever own.

I click my fingers sometimes when I walk into a new room too (usually unconsciously - my wife hates it).

singemonkey

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: I click my fingers sometimes when I walk into a new room too (usually unconsciously - my wife hates it).

Haha. ? I'll bet.

Cool. Good advice. I'm going to start delivering polite applause to the room.

Tokai-SA

singe

For R1000 you should try a Zoom H1.
You'll be amazed how well these "recorders" work...the H1 being the cheapest of them.

singemonkey

Tokai SA wrote: singe

For R1000 you should try a Zoom H1.
You'll be amazed how well these "recorders" work...the H1 being the cheapest of them.

I'm going to do something a bit like that, Lance. To be revealed in time ?