PeachyDragon
Have you noticed that some guitarists manage to do this and most don't?
Some guys make the guitar sound like a voice.
Anyone who knows me knows I'm a Brian May/Queen nut.
The question is, do you guys have any opinions/tips about this style or
any other players that you think really excel at this style of playing?
For instance, Zak Wylde could never make this list. Even though he is a very skilled guitarist.
I tend to use many release bends and bends to get closer to this style but it's still tricky!
vic
Listen to George Harrison's solo in "Something" for a genial delivery...simple and sweet
PeachyDragon
Vic wrote:
Listen to George Harrison's solo in "Something" for a genial delivery...simple and sweet
Certainly awesome.
Brian May did say that they used the Beatles as their inspiration/Bible
and that he doesn't think anyone has gotten to the level of the Beatles yet.
Do you have a favourite version. I found these 2:
I prefer the 1992 version.
1974
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1992
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vic
One of my favs is in fact on the memorial "Concert for George" DVD done by a group of world-class musos (Clapton, McCartney et al ...with a full string and brass orchestra filling in.
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Werner-Carstens
Certain players can say with a few notes more than most can do with an orchestra. I have always thought that Mark Knopfler could do this. The solo that Hiram Bullock plays on Stings cover of Little Wing is IMHO also saying more than just the notes.
BobC
OK, dumb question, but what's the forum for if not to sneer at the sheer ignorance of those of us with lesser knowledge? :?
What makes a solo 'melodic' as opposed to one which isn't?
I understand the key/root word here is 'melody', so does it simply mean the solo closely matches the melody eg Mr Big's 'To Be With You' -
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Or is the word 'melodic' used in some other sense?
vic
BobC wrote:
OK, dumb question, but what's the forum for if not to sneer at the sheer ignorance of those of us with lesser knowledge? :?
What makes a solo 'melodic' as opposed to one which isn't?
I understand the key/root word here is 'melody', so does it simply mean the solo closely matches the melody eg Mr Big's 'To Be With You' -
Or is the word 'melodic' used in some other sense?
The example you use here is strictly speaking not a solo....he plays solo/alone .....the guy only plays the melody of the song. a Solo is usually
within a song and normally does not follow the original melody to the tee. Listen again to the solo in "Something" above....you'll notice that that solo has a melody of its own but is still very much connected to the original melody.
Tokai-SA
PeachyDragon wrote:
The question is, do you guys have any opinions/tips about this style or
any other players that you think really excel at this style of playing?
David Gilmour is the king, IMO. ?
Tips, learn all the Gilmour solos you can.
If you need the backing tracks let me know and I'll mail them to you.
vic
Another form of soloing is some small but vital bits of eg guitar during a performance of a song. Listen to the guitar bits of Knopfler during Brothers in Arms. These happen way before the actual solo in the song...and again it does not follow the melody to the tee but is beautifully blended into the song.
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BobC
Vic wrote:
BobC wrote:
OK, dumb question, but what's the forum for if not to sneer at the sheer ignorance of those of us with lesser knowledge? :?
What makes a solo 'melodic' as opposed to one which isn't?
I understand the key/root word here is 'melody', so does it simply mean the solo closely matches the melody eg Mr Big's 'To Be With You' -
Or is the word 'melodic' used in some other sense?
The example you use here is not strictly speaking a solo....the guy only plays the melody of the song. a Solo is usually
within a song and normally does not follow the original melody to the tee. Listen again to the solo in "Something" above....you'll notice that that solo has a melody of its own but is still very much connected to the original melody.
Makes sense, somewhat, thanks. I take your point on the solo in 'Something'.
Although, I guess there must be quite a bit of subjectivity involved in differentiating between the instrumental break in 'To Be With You' and a genuine discernable 'solo' within a song.
So would something like the the solo in Queen's 'Hammer to Fall' fit better into the 'melodic solo' category? Or am I still off target? Maybe the solo in 'Tears in Heaven'?
Does anyone have an objective definition of what makes a solo a melodic solo, as opposed to a plain vanilla solo? Is there one? I'm guessing there is a little bit of a grey area.
vic
AFAIR....the solo in "Tears in Heaven" is very much the melody.....(I have n't listened to it in a long while)...but yes, it's a solo within the song. For me a "melodic solo" is a solo that's pleasing to the ear (subjective I know ? ) without which the song will be a lot poorer...if that makes any sense ?
Again I wish to refer to Something and Brothers in Arms....I remember these by virtue of those magnificent, almost genial melodic solos and small bits of guitar work throughout the latter.
PeachyDragon
BobC wrote:
So would something like the the solo in Queen's 'Hammer to Fall' fit better into the 'melodic solo' category? Or am I still off target? Maybe the solo in 'Tears in Heaven'?
Does anyone have an objective definition of what makes a solo a melodic solo, as opposed to a plain vanilla solo? Is there one? I'm guessing there is a little bit of a grey area.
Hi Bob, Well, most of the solos by Kirk Hammet, Zak Wylde, Michael Angelo, and even John Petrucci, Paul Gilbert(one of my favourite guitarists) are generally not melodic for the most part. They often use speed picking and lots of scale runs. I like those as well but it's different. Speed picking causes the picking noise to subtract from the vocal qualities of the guitar and scale runs tend to play the notes
in a slightly robotic way without much inflection. Once again, sometimes those effects are amazing and perfect for a song but it's the opposite of what the topic is about.(for me at least) Even a scalar solo played slowly can seem unmelodic if it is very transparent... What I'm talking about are the guitarists who blur the line between notes, frets and phrasing in a way that reminds me more of a singer and makes me forget that the guitar is a fretted instrument. It's not an easy thing to accomplish even if you copy their playing and try to write similar material.
evolucian
^ Are you nuts? Not melodic? How so?
Zakk is very melodic and especially as a counter to the original theme... but he brings it back "Dreamer", "Mama, I'm coming home", "No more tears", "Ghost behind my eyes" etc.
It took Hammett a while but he finally got there... and then he lost it again - oh well. Gilbert actually nailed it in "to be with you" But thats about the only time... Petrucci has only nailed a few... "Lifting shadow's off a dream", "Hollow years", "Through her eyes" etc. MAB loses the plot most of the time anyway.
Melodic usually means it contains some form of melody, whether it contains the song's intitial melody or is a progression thereof - still musical. The initial thing was a lyrical quality to it (seeing as thats what the voice offers - whether its singing La or Ooh or Aah.. its still there. So this incorporates heavy opera's trilly vibrato, vocally smooth legato lines... and a decent vibrato aswell. Zakk and Petrucci often nail it in terms of this - WHEN the song calls for it.
Brian May doesn't always go for the vocal thing cos it gets monotonous... some of his solo's just flip and drown for me... some.
A scalar solo is not melodic at all. It is just a scale going up and down and just sounds like crap. Same with arpeggios consistently, crap (in the sense of it not being vocal nor terribly nice to listen to). In the case of Zakk's "Mama I'm coming home", it is a brief scalar reference within an octave.
That Brothers in arms track... initially those little pieces prepare for the main piece which is in the solo. It just helps move the song along. In no way are his fills related to his voice, imo of course. The phrasing on the other hand brings out the lyrical/vocal quality that started the post. And yeah, that solo when it finally kicks in after all that preparation just... kicks... ass! Triggers those goosies.
That "Tears in heaven" is an extension of the main song theme. So it still counts.
I'd go so far as to say that a lot of the new bands miss the point of a solo. If there is one, they just let loose and play... stuff. Get a pat on the back and get told its awesome. Shame.
But anyway... just my opinion. I will add this though... One man's poison is another's life elixir. This is all subjective in the end... as we all have different ears and specifics of what we like. ?
PeachyDragon
I respect your views evolucian.
I saw a 60 minute guitar DVD lesson/interview with zak where he just blazes on pentatonics and explains how he doesnt really use melodic minor because someone(I think he said malmsteen) put such a trademark on it and how he just sticks to pentatonics. I have grown used to Petrucci but when I first heard him 90% of his playing sounded like machine gun fire. Only guitarists can appreciate that. He does play slow melodic things, but I think we misunderstand eachother: The title was
Melodic guitar solos/technique that transcends the instrument.
So I don't mean just melodic. Paul Gilbert's solo on "to be with you" is lovely and I like it tons but it still sounds
very much like a fretted instrument is playing. I know it's a blurry line I refer to. I just find that some
players can use bends and leaps between melodies(as opposed to linear melodies) in part to make the
guitar sound less fretted. A vocalist hardly ever sings in a equal-tempered stepping way like a guitar.
For instance the solo on "somebody to love" has scalar bits in it that sound fretted but generally it sounds
like it flows naturally like a voice or violin. Same possibly with Slash's version of the Godfather theme or
November Rain's solo in parts.
Averatu
PeachyDragon wrote:
BobC wrote:
So would something like the the solo in Queen's 'Hammer to Fall' fit better into the 'melodic solo' category? Or am I still off target? Maybe the solo in 'Tears in Heaven'?
Does anyone have an objective definition of what makes a solo a melodic solo, as opposed to a plain vanilla solo? Is there one? I'm guessing there is a little bit of a grey area.
Hi Bob, Well, most of the solos by Kirk Hammet, Zak Wylde, Michael Angelo, and even John Petrucci, Paul Gilbert(one of my favourite guitarists) are generally not melodic for the most part. They often use speed picking and lots of scale runs. I like those as well but it's different. Speed picking causes the picking noise to subtract from the vocal qualities of the guitar and scale runs tend to play the notes
in a slightly robotic way without much inflection. Once again, sometimes those effects are amazing and perfect for a song but it's the opposite of what the topic is about.(for me at least) Even a scalar solo played slowly can seem unmelodic if it is very transparent... What I'm talking about are the guitarists who blur the line between notes, frets and phrasing in a way that reminds me more of a singer and makes me forget that the guitar is a fretted instrument. It's not an easy thing to accomplish even if you copy their playing and try to write similar material.
Disagree!!
Zak Wylde maybe, but Petrucci is quite a melodic player, especially his solo stuff. I'm not a Metalica fan, but I can easily whistle along to any of Hammets solo's on the Black Album. I only know MAB from the Speed Kills dvd's, but the songs he performs on those are very melodic with moments of intense brutal 'a-melodic' speed. Slayer on the other hand generally do the chromatic, 'screw melody', for the sake of speed solo's. Knowing when to apply speed can make a great guitar solo, but without a melody, you've sunk.
evolucian
Which is why I really really like Jeff Beck. On some he blows.. but on others (a lot) it just transcends.
PeachyDragon
Petrucci certainly has his moments. There's some awesome stuff on the Liquid Tension Experiment Albums but even those awesome examples are not quite as accomplished in this as the examples I mentioned. Just my opinion. The George Harrison example was awesome though.
Most of the melodic Metallica stuff is played by James as far as I've seen on DVD's. When I record something and it sounds like Kirk to me, I realize it's time to relax and listen to what I'm playing. That said, of course Kirk can do many things I can't.
BobC
As much as I love how subjective this can be, I simultaneously hate how subjective it can be... ?
Everything. must. be. in. its. neat. little. box......aaaaaargh >☹
PeachyDragon
LOL, actually this topic would denote that everything must be outside it's little box. ?
Personally I just find that even with melodic playing in my own band, I don't always get that dreamy
quality I want... but then again... most people hate their own creations after they finish them and
can only appreciate it when they forget it's them. Even Paco Delucia said he doesn't like his playing
unless he hears it and doesn't realize it's him. Once he does realize he hates it again. ?
BobC
My main limitation is my failure to push those boundaries and it's something I plan on working on. The best solos, I agree, are ones that often break those rules (or rather 'conventions')
Even at a very basic level, and I don't mean to dismiss Blues as 'basic' music, the simple act of switching between major and minor pentatonics did not occur to me when I first learnt to noodle around with pentatonics/blues scales, but solos that often got my attention, mostly those heard in tutorials etc, were ones which I later learned used the technique of switching back & forth between major/minor. These are most often the blues solos which make one think 'How did they do THAT?'
I guess when these uber-guitarists we all worship push the boundaries of these musical conventions, they get our attention because it's something a little different...something that pricks our ears up and makes us listen.
Dan Patlansky alluded to this at the workshop I attended recently in Clarens, going as far as to say (and back it up by playing loads of examples with the band) that there are effectively no bad notes, some are just better than others and if you phrase it right, you can pretty much get away with anything.....oh there is one small catch to that....you do have to disproportionately talented ? but the point he made was mind-blowing for me, especially when he went straight into demonstrations, proving his point for us all.
