Barre

Nitebob · 2012-01-04T10:46:14+00:00

Hi all, I have become a little obsessive about these, since somebody made a single comment on a post where I struggled with chords. The comment was "get to...

Barre

deefstes

X-rated Bob wrote:
singemonkey wrote: Hendrix is a good example of someone who never - to my recollection - ever played traditional barres.
Looking at the pictures of Jimi it seems that either his guitars had eensy weensy necks or he had big hands.

I was thinking the same thing. Another one is John Mayer. Look at him enveloping that neck.

X-rated Bob wrote: There's usually a well considered basis to all the text book technique, but it should be regarded as a foundation and not as a set of commandments.

I realise that and I'm not even really averse to adjusting my style. It's just that the thumb barre doesn't come naturally because the opposite have been drilled into me when I started out. It's a bit like driving on the right hand side of the road, it just doesn't feel right.

deefstes

And here's Jimi, making the rest of us look pathetic.

singemonkey

Blues players have traditionally played with the thumb over for two reasons, I think. The first is a break with tradition. They were never trained by orchestral musicians to start with. Secondly it has to do with how it facilitates bending and the heavy vibrato used in blues.

Blues is very much about feel and expression, so you bending and vibrato are probably its most important techniques. With the thumb over the top, your fingers are at an angle to the frets. and the side of your index knuckle rests on the edge of the fretboard as a fulcrum around which your hand rotates to bend or produce vibrato. The thumb is not the important part, but the placement of the hand which leaves the thumb over the top is - at least as I understand it.

Since you're in that position, in order to play a barre, you'd have to readjust your hand. This is very slow and inconvenient in a style that constantly moves from chords to lead playing (with those bends and vibrato), so to avoid this "flipping" you leave the hand where it is and fake the barre by using the thumb to fret the 1st string.

So your hand can stay in one position throughout. Watch any vid of Hendrix and you'll get a sense of what I mean.

It's not necessary to play blues this way, but it's a very common approach. Someone who doesn't do it quite like this is Clapton, whose vibrato is straight up and down almost always. That's a very difficult vibrato style to get right though. He's actually only touching the guitar where his fingertips touch the string. The rest of his hand is floating in air.

When you're doing the standard Johnny be good shuffle, you're holding the root and the V note with your index and ring fingers respectively, and you use your pinky to fret the additions to this power chord that make up the rhythm. Without your thumb well back, your hand can't stretch out to make these stretches.

P.s. Jimmy's hands were huge. So were Albert King's. But that doesn't prevent small fingered players from being successful with this style.

BobC

deefstes wrote:
singemonkey wrote: I've decided now... to use my thumb over the top always.... What it does is prevent all the flipping.
Could you explain what this "flipping" or "switching" is that you're talking about please? I have steadfastly refused to adopt the thumb over the top fretting simply because I was taught when I first learned guitar (nylon) that your thumb should not even show over the top of the neck. This has just stuck with me and, while I most certainly have it all wrong as far as electric is concerned, I can't help but to always try to keep that thumb down.

singemonkey wrote: One exception: blues shuffles up the neck (Johnny B. Good rhythm style) where you simply can't get the stretch without shifting the thumb back.
Sorry, I'm going to have to ask you to explain again please. Maybe it's just that I'm not familiar enough with the thumb barring that I don't understand what you mean but I'd appreciate if you could elaborate a bit.

I'm the same regarding the thumb-over-the-top technique but I've started practicing it recently. I have accepted that there's a remote possibility that I may not be anatomically ideal for this technique when it comes to using it predominantly for barre-chords but I'm also open to the fact that it may just be alien to me, so I am giving it the benefit of the doubt and persisting with some practice routines.

For a more detailed explanation of the technique as it applies to blues / electric guitar, there is an overview of a video concerning this technique on Steviesnacks.com - http://www.steviesnacks.com/essential-techniques . I downloaded this training video recently and I must admit, it's not easy for me but I'm going to keep trying for a few more months as I think it may just be the involvement of different muscles etc which I need to strengthen over time. I remember when I first started barre-chords and didn't think I'd ever get that as well.

I'll agree with X-Rated Bob that there's a time and a place for this technique and sometimes it's essential for certain pieces, but you can get by fine without it in most cases. I have the tab for Freight Train in a fingerstyle book by Mark Hanson so I might give that a bash, if it's the same 'must use the thumb' arrangement.

deefstes

singemonkey wrote: Blues players have traditionally played with the thumb over for two reasons, I think. The first is a break with tradition. They were never trained by orchestral musicians to start with. Secondly it has to do with how it facilitates bending and the heavy vibrato used in blues.

Blues is very much about feel and expression, so you bending and vibrato are probably its most important techniques. With the thumb over the top, your fingers are at an angle to the frets. and the side of your index knuckle rests on the edge of the fretboard as a fulcrum around which your hand rotates to bend or produce vibrato. The thumb is not the important part, but the placement of the hand which leaves the thumb over the top is - at least as I understand it.

Since you're in that position, in order to play a barre, you'd have to readjust your hand. This is very slow and inconvenient in a style that constantly moves from chords to lead playing (with those bends and vibrato), so to avoid this "flipping" you leave the hand where it is and fake the barre by using the thumb to fret the 1st string.

So your hand can stay in one position throughout. Watch any vid of Hendrix and you'll get a sense of what I mean.

It's not necessary to play blues this way, but it's a very common approach. Someone who doesn't do it quite like this is Clapton, whose vibrato is straight up and down almost always. That's a very difficult vibrato style to get right though. He's actually only touching the guitar where his fingertips touch the string. The rest of his hand is floating in air.

When you're doing the standard Johnny be good shuffle, you're holding the root and the V note with your index and ring fingers respectively, and you use your pinky to fret the additions to this power chord that make up the rhythm. Without your thumb well back, your hand can't stretch out to make these stretches.

P.s. Jimmy's hands were huge. So were Albert King's. But that doesn't prevent small fingered players from being successful with this style.

Aha, thanks. That's fascinating. I definitely need to investigate this. Maybe it will help my vibrato which still sucks rather badly.

DaFiz

Try playing a whole song on barre chords only on acoustic guitar... something like All Along The Watchtower...
Am G F G Am G F and when you're done your left hand aches and cramps so you can't even take a sip of your beer. :-[

Nitebob

Now we are getting down to the grit of things....

Good answer DaFiz, but a few questions:

1. Won't the cramping (don't take offense) go away if you practise Barre's more?
2. Isn't electric guitar chords based on Barre's? How do they play most of the night then?
3.If above is incorrect, how different is playing electric as opposed to playing acoustic?

domhatch

DaFiz wrote: Try playing a whole song on barre chords only on acoustic guitar... something like All Along The Watchtower...
Am G F G Am G F and when you're done your left hand aches and cramps so you can't even take a sip of your beer. :-[

the sipping of the beer is of paramount importance.

DonovanB

The thumb over the top is interesting. I've seen Billy Corgan shredding and using his thumb in some really fast stuff.

I watched a video on Henrix's rhythym technique. Using the thumb for the bottom notes (see what I did there) frees up more fingers for little trilly tralala's. Think, "Bold as Love" and John Mayer's "Heart of Life" as well

domhatch

Donovan Banks wrote: I watched a video on Henrix's rhythym technique. Using the thumb for the bottom notes (see what I did there) frees up more fingers for little trilly tralala's. Think, "Bold as Love" and John Mayer's "Heart of Life" as well

?arty: :applause: :woohoo:

deefstes

Nitebob wrote: Now we are getting down to the grit of things....

Good answer DaFiz, but a few questions:

1. Won't the cramping (don't take offense) go away if you practise Barre's more?
2. Isn't electric guitar chords based on Barre's? How do they play most of the night then?
3.If above is incorrect, how different is playing electric as opposed to playing acoustic?

1. Yes it would. It's about hand strength and after a while you get used to it. I used to exercise my left hand with a stress ball and it definitely helped with these prolonged use of barre chords.

2. On electric guitar you need exert only a fraction of the pressure to effect a barre chord. In that sense, electric is infinitely easier than acoustic.

Just another comment, if barre chords is really a problem for you and your left hand gets too tired you might want to have your guitar set up properly. Many acoustic guitars come off the shelf with a much too high action which will kill your left hand on the barre chords.

Nitebob

I'm getting clear ringing notes on both my guitars with barre's. Have to admit though I have to work on the speed... and further down the neck becomes a problem because them blinking frets get smaller, I think I need to use the pinky less and ring finger more. Thats why the stress ball sounds like a good idea, that way I can relieve stress and get the lefty stronger. So one question remained unanswered...what are the core differences in playing acoustic and playing electric. I've got a hybrid and would love to start exploring the electric side of things...

evolucian

Nitebob wrote: Now we are getting down to the grit of things....

Good answer DaFiz, but a few questions:

1. Won't the cramping (don't take offense) go away if you practise Barre's more?
2. Isn't electric guitar chords based on Barre's? How do they play most of the night then?
3.If above is incorrect, how different is playing electric as opposed to playing acoustic?

1. Yes and no. The more stamina you develop, the longer you'll last. But there will still be a point of cramping or fatigue. Something that alleviates the tension on the thumb (thnks to barres) is the playing of single note lines. Can be a riff or whatever... it doesn't matter. There should always be a break somewhere. Depending how much of a Duracell bunny you are.
2. The chords are the same on either instrument. On electric, especially with distortion, we tend to favour power chords (root fifth and its octave for when you don't play punk shite). But the same thing can be done on acoustic. It's still six strings... on a block of wood (unless you're retarded and got a 7 or 8 string .... ... runs from Chad). Just different sound outputs.
3. There isn't much of a difference apart from techniques. Some techniques blend over pretty well... percussion is for the acoustic side though. Only some of the percussion things are possible on an electric... though you'll have to find out for yourself which of those are. Both guitars can be tuned to open tunings - both can be played with fingers or plectrum or hybrid. One other difference is sound. Both of the instrument and the strings used. Some things just sound better on specific instruments.

Take a while and continue your barres. Leave the thumb for later (a couple of months or so). It is a cool technique and frees up tension on that muscle in the hand. Both techniques developed evenly are the goal nonetheless.

If you take a look at those pics again... Mayer's hand is not flat against the neck... where Hendrix' is. This allows more of the thumb to bleed over. Mayer's pic could be right about the time he does vibrato or a curl. The thumb aids in bends too. I even use my thumb on the nylon... unless I'm playing a classical piece or a barre. If i'm genuinely ripping, the thumb will be in traditional position... if i'm doing percussive rhythms, thumb is on the strings.

Nitebob

Thanx Evo, that's some good info, but you kept enough of electric playing a mystery to keep me interested. Very helpful bud, thanx

Conrad

Nitebob wrote: Now we are getting down to the grit of things....

Good answer DaFiz, but a few questions:

1. Won't the cramping (don't take offense) go away if you practise Barre's more?

Do not ignore cramps! First see doctor.

I have had to cancel all performances from here to end of February because of such a sudden injury.

Nitebob

Just a observation. Tried the thumb over thing, and it works for the basic barre chords, but if you play minor barres in the e-shape or 7ths, it won't work...

BobC

Nitebob wrote: Just a observation. Tried the thumb over thing, and it works for the basic barre chords, but if you play minor barres in the e-shape or 7ths, it won't work...

The minors and 7ths are certainly possible, just difficult for some - myself definitely included.

For Example, with the E-shape 7th chord, you have 2 choices of voicing - one involving the pinky on the 2nd string in addition to the full E shape and the other only requiring notes to be fretted on the 3rd and 5th strings. Some people are able to achieve the full E-shape plus pinky in a thumb/barre chord by fretting the notes on the 4th & 5th strings with the ring finger, freeing the pinky up to fret the note on the 2nd string. This also allows a quick shift to a '6th' shape by shifting the pinky a semitone back (sometimes good for blues rhythm)

Using the ring finger as described above, but alone, will also achieve the minor voicing. Some people struggle to fret the 4th & 5th strings with the ring finger without damping the 3rd string, but it can be achieved with some practice.

Some are luckier than others and it comes more naturally, but generally it does take a lot of practice.

DonovanB

You could play 7th like so

E--x--
B--5--
G--6--
D--5--
A--x--
E--5--

with your thumb over the top. You still get the notes A, C#, E, G BEING 1, 3, 5 and b7 for the A7 chord.