Fender 63 Spring Reverb Tank (6G15) Build?!

Norman86 · 2011-12-19T10:46:14+00:00

Seeing as i would like a Fender 63 Spring Reverb tank, and not necessarily a pedal, I have a couple of questions regarding this unit! The original Fender unit, both reissue and original units, are EXTREMELY expensive here in SA! at least 2.5 times the US retail! And im not sure about saving up to buy a second hand unit! not to mention the fact that i have never seen a tank on sale here in SA! which would only leave importing one from the states! i haven't exactly read good things about all the units! apparently they aren't all built well, and even new, you can get a lemon! Sooooooooooo.... I'm thinking about rather building one up! It would give me something to do, and it would be pretty cool to have made my own reverb tank! This will be next year though, im just trying to weigh up the pro's and cons!! I have looked at the price of the components, and they don't strike me as being that expensive? I have seen (most of) the components needed on tubedepot.com, but I'm not sure what is not available on there? Either way, it looks like it would be quite a bit cheaper to build one myself? Apparently its not an easy unit to build though? But im not sure i understand why? It really doesn't look all that difficult?? also, would it be easier to buy the components separately from tubedepot.com and the like, or to buy a kit from triode electronics or the weber 5g15 kit? http://www.triodestore.com/diy-fender-g15-reverb-k15.html http://www.diyrecordingequipment.com/projects/weber-5g15-reverb-unit/ Here's a few example builds of the reverb unit: http://music-electronics-forum.com/t21496/ http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/squawk-box/115059-fender-reverb-6g15-standalone-reverb-clone-build.html I'll probably have more questions etc later on! As for you techie types, lead me on!! Thanks!! ?

AlanRatcliffe

+1 Mike. I don't understand the love for the Holy Grail either.

The Blue Sky is top of my list - sounds great, has all the parameters I would need and is still simple enough to use in a live setting. The HOF is the best value for money with a good range of sounds and the Wet is super simple to use and sounds great (a real set and forget kind of pedal).

+1 to singemonkey's comments. The more reverb you have, the more you disappear into the mix (and with voice, the less intelligibility you have) - that's in the nature of human hearing. You want to stand out in the mix, you decrease reverb levels. You want to pad out the sound go ahead and raise it up. I usually use shorter reverbs of about 1.2s - 1.5s (RT60) too, which help keep things tighter. Another trick is to use your predelay, which also helps the direct sound stand out.

Another thing - a reverb tank by it's very nature goes into the front end of the amp. This works very well for clean sounds, but the moment you use amp drive, the amp compresses the signal and this completely changes the volume and nature of the reverb. So if you are using amp drive, most reverbs are going to sound better in the amp's loop - surf being the one exception (which is pretty clean anyway).

Gearhead

Why? Because if you really really want to build a tube amp, you must just build a tube amp and sell that Albion of yours. If on said Albion amp you must must have spring reverb, rather mod the amp than build an entirely new half-amp on the side. Alan just made another argument for this: the place in the chain. I haven't seen the schematics, but in all likelihood you can add a buffer and recovery stage somewhere.

Keira-WitherKay

i used to be happy with my carl martin surf trem and reverb until i found that old 60's tube amp jp redesigned for me and wow the tube driven (with a relatively small tank) reverb and trem is awesome and i sold off my pedals as soon as i got it ........ BUt like alan and singe and mike are saying i play only clean and use only a hint of reverb , BUT that hint sounds awesome ...

so yes i too am adicted to tube driven spring reverb (on a clean sound that is)

but i wouldn't want to carry an entire spring reverb unit (ala the fender one) and an amp to a gig, and stack em...... i saw a video with brad paisley and he stacked a dr Z reverb unit on top of his Zwreck and wow i'd hate to have to carry that double head...to gigs..........

and they make plenty tube amps with great onboard tube driven spring reverb , so go shopping ? a great excuse for another amp

Norman86

Awh crap...
Any reason why they couldnt be used in a loop?
Too high powered or what??

Pedals... damn! was hoping to be different!
But at least a pedal will be cheaper!

AlanRatcliffe

Norman86 wrote Any reason why they couldnt be used in a loop?
Too high powered or what??

The inputs are instrument level (about -20dB), most loops run at pro line level (+4dB). However if your amp is designed with a switchable loop level and has a setting specifically for pedals (becoming more common with more modern amps that have a solidstate send and return, but you never see it in an all-valve amps) you'll be OK running it in the loop.

makepeace

Can't believe I've only seen this thread now!

I've heard a couple of times (and these are the same people that say that for guitars, the only amps are tube amps) that tube reverb is the way to go. That being said, there is veeery little information on actual design of reverb (stand-alone units, and also their implementation in amplifiers). I don't know whether I agree with that statement, but as everyone knows but sometimes don't like to admit, there is far too much subjectivity in this field to come up with a definitive answer. All I know is that I have my own DIY tube verb, and it sounds awesome to me, so I'm happy.

For a stand-alone unit, you'll need a HT supply of around 250VDC (other than that which might be contained in your tube amp), which implies the requirement for a huge power transformer and a rectifier (either tube or solid-state). Then you have the tank, which is also a big part, but relatively easy to get hold of. Then based on design, you might have up to 3 other tubes, transformers and/or big capacitors to drive and recover your signal as well as big capacitors to filter your power. These things cost big money.

If you want to "add one on" to your amp, you have to make sure your PT can handle the extra current draw, fiddle with your layout (which on modern amps will prove very difficult, as they generally don't make use of the simple turret board layout) and find a place for a tank.

And all the while you have to make sure that you're using a safe and quiet layout/grounding scheme which is a very tough concept to get to grips with and you'll never be able to get it as good as can be.

SO, if you want to get into this, you'll have to KNOW and be very confident that you'll be able to do it. Some prior DIY experience and success would be very helpful, in any field. A lot of patience and a huge respect for the rules (mainly in terms of safety) is mandatory.

The fender verb would probably be quite a good one for you to start on, and I would definitely go with the others and suggest you go with a kit (although this IS the expensive option, and you won't be saving that much over a retail unit, especially considering your time put in).

There are also other options though.. There are even projects that use the 12DW7 (dual triode, high mu/low mu) as a single drive and recovery stage for a high impedance tank. Thats 1 tube, excl rectifier. You could even drop a tube recto and use an SS bridge recto. This in conjunction with a simple isolation transformer will give you the HT you need. But yeah, that's probably too complicated for your situation, just giving you a taste of whats out there.

IF you're going to go with the Weber kit, you better print out an A3 copy of that schem and layout and stick them on your roof above your bed and go through them every night ?

You also need to realize (with EVERYTHING), building your own stuff isn't always cheaper, especially if its your first go. There are people who are sitting behind wells of capital that have optimized the balance between inlay and outlay to achieve efficiency, and in HUGE numbers. So anything that you try to build one of will generally be available you to buy for cheaper. The exceptions are lucky mistakes.

All in all, I think DIY stuff with music equipment is great, but as someone who hasn't yet dipped their toes, its better to know exactly what you're getting into and whether or not you can cope, otherwise you might find yours getting zapped. Do as much reading as you can. Places to start:

www.music-electronics-forum.com (search for reverb threads and sift through them)
www.ppwatt.com (same as above)
www.accutronicsreverb.com

To end off I'll say that its possible for anyone to build a replica of something that someone has already been conceived, especially these days where you have all of these kits and things, but to do so safely and efficiently is another story. It is also likely that you will end up having built something and have absolutely no idea how it works (or why). Although, this is not a bad thing and I definitely think there is something to gain by it, even if it is to learn that you don't want to know how it works. So if you feel you can do it, go for it.

Good luck!

Norman86

The fender verb would probably be quite a good one for you to start on, and I would definitely go with the others and suggest you go with a kit (although this IS the expensive option, and you won't be saving that much over a retail unit, especially considering your time put in).

over R10k for a unit that costs around $600USD for an original unit?! NOT a chance!
the one kit costs around $200, which yes, it excludes the cabinet, but includeds everything else!
And its quality parts from what i understand!
Even with my time, NO chance it would come close to being $600, let alone R10k ?
For the price of the weber kit though, it might as well come assembled! (at $415) and then again, i might as well just lay out for the Fender unit!
Which is why i considered making one up!

Thanks for the links!! I'll be sure to check them out ?

To be honest, its not so much a case of learning to make amps, but a case of not laying out so much cash for something if i can do it cheaper myself!
Yes, it would be copying an already available product, but i would have made it myself! which would be cool!

makepeace

Norman86 wrote
The fender verb would probably be quite a good one for you to start on, and I would definitely go with the others and suggest you go with a kit (although this IS the expensive option, and you won't be saving that much over a retail unit, especially considering your time put in).
over R10k for a unit that costs around $600USD for an original unit?! NOT a chance!
the one kit costs around $200, which yes, it excludes the cabinet, but includeds everything else!
And its quality parts from what i understand!

Sigh, this isn't the point. But fine: You're neglecting shipping for one, you can expect at least $100, likely more. Remember that heavy transformer and huge spring tank they includeds?! So thats already $300 at least. Then there is customs, which will likely be between R400 and R700. So there you have about $350. As you say, no cab, which if bought would cost about a grand for a spiffy one. That takes you to about $450. Then you have to build it. I'll call it about 15hrs of work. You're likely not to get it right first time, so add on about 5 hrs for that.. This is approaching the cost of an actual unit in America. Then, later down the line you find the thing has broken, because it wasn't put together by a professional and didn't go through quality control. Thats another couple of hours trying to work out whats wrong, and even money spent taking it to a tech if you can't fix it.

Things add up.

AND, I'm certain R10K is the cheapest you'll find one of those for here. Plus, there is always second hand which it doesn't seem like you've considered, although something like that might be hard to find. You might check ebay every now and again.

If you read my post properly and pull from it the dominant tone, I'm all encouragement.. Just know what you're getting into.

MikeM

I still vote for a good pedal.

Gearhead

Here's the rundown, then:

80% of the thing you want to build is casing, power supply, connectivity and all sorts of other things you don't need if the spring set gets mounted inside an amp. Hence the fact that a lot of amps have reverb inside and the separate unit is rare to say the least. This goes for weight (as Keira pointed out) as well as cost (as Makepeace stated)
The value of what you build is a lot higher than the resale value. Not only is your reverb rare on its own, it is actually going to be hand-built by someone who does not have all the know-how. You have to consider every rand cent you put in as absolutely gone.
Just as your liking of your amp has changed since you got it, your taste for reverb will change over time.

If you want to build, go head please don't let us stop you. If we are giving you advice, it is because you asked. You do not have to make sense, this is your hobby. Just don't tell the forum it's a good idea ?

Keira-WitherKay

Great post there make peace and gear head , i would still say keep your amp you have with digital reverb and then since you will spend a fair amount on building or buying a spring reverb unit why not look at buying a 2nd hand vintage amp with a tube driven spring reverb built in . For example just last week a tube amp with reverb sold at 1500 in working order at a music store i just missed buying it ? and sure it may need some attention but my point to point tube amp with spring reverb and trem cost only 2 k and cost 2.5 K extra to totally rebuild it to fender princeton circuit by jp le roux amp gigs full time and is great in studio and all for 4.5 k so maybe just think of a 2nd amp then you can do all those cool stereo setups with them cos it seems either way you gonna spend that much

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