Sweet sweet P90 tone

Warren · 2011-10-18T19:09:51+00:00

...Sade isn't half bad either. ? Hypnotic bass line too. I like how understated the playing is here, making great use of sustain and slow bends.

deefstes

I think Warren hits the nail on the head. I guess it depends on where you cut your teeth. If you cut your teeth practicing rock riffs and solos in your bedroom then you are likely to focus on that if you ever get to play in a band where the emphasis is on the lead vocal (such as Sade) and you're jsut going to screw it up - however awesome your riffs may be.

Similarly, you'll find solo artists who gets thrown together to do a "We are the world" type collaborative song and the finished product just doesn't work because there are too many competing styles. It's a bit like the song has too much personality and it doesn't come together around one focus point.

Warren

Squonk wrote Where do you know Andy Latimer from?
Are we talking about the guitarist from Camel? I love his playing, I was a huge Camel fan in the 70's, have acquired some Albums again.

Yeah, from Camel. There was an article based on his playing in Guitar Techniques a few years ago and I quite liked it, so started listening to some of their stuff. I would never have known about him otherwise. ?

Warren

X-rated Bob wrote I think that's nothing to do with a genre and everything to do with playing in a bedroom rather than trying to play live and/or with other people.

I never said anything about genres? ?

Exactly. But this forum is full of guys (like me) who are, by and large, bedroom guitarists, at least for now. So the message here is that even though you're into guitar and you love AC/DC or The Shadows or whatever, it's beneficial to sometimes check out these sorts of arrangements where there are many musicians playing together, with each instrument in its own space. For those of us who do play (or have played) in bands, were probably more aware of the rest of the band.

Oh sure. Jerry Douglas makes a point about Russ Barenberg on one of the Transatlantic Sessions DVDs: "He's a very tasteful player. He knows when to play and when not to play."

My introduction to Larry Carlton was the guitar solo on "Kid Charlemagne". Then I heard some of his solo stuff with lots of fireworks on it. THEN Steely Dan released Aja and there was Larry again but playing lots of fab rhythm guitar. I was entranced, and fascinated that the guy who could pump out those high-octane solos could also lay back and play rhythm if that's what the song needed (or what the producer wanted).

But there's a context to this as well. When you go to see Clapton you EXPECT, indeed WANT to hear lots of guitar solos. It's part of the deal, and the backing musos will be the guys who exercise discretion and play to make the boss look good.

I can applaud both modes of operation. I like Richard Thompson as a songwriter, but when I went to see him with his band I WANTED lots of guitar solos (and got them). OTOH I was impressed by the way that Martin Carthy (when I saw him) was all about the song and the story in the song and even though he's a great player he seemed disinterested, maybe even reluctant to put his chops on display. Only right at the end of the show, the very last encore, did he let the fireworks off on an instrumental piece.

I can applaud both modes of operation too. Perhaps it sounded like I was making a prescriptive statement about how ALL guitar players should approach their music? That wasn't my intention. Or perhaps somewhere it came across that simple, tasteful playing is ALWAYS the way to go? Not so, I'm a big fan of "guitar heavy" music of all kinds.

Clapton, again, is actually a perfect example. Some of his recent shows have, literally, 10 or 20 guitar playing ICONS on stage, but not a single one of them are stomping all over each other. Plenty of guitar solos, but somehow they all fit together and give each other the room they need. However, sometimes it's easier to see that concept in action in a gentler, sparser song like the one posted.

Bob-Dubery

One thing I do want to say is that I think you have to have the chops before you can start deciding when and how and how much to use them. In engineering they talk (or used to) about "elegance". "Elegant" solutions are those that have everything required but nothing extra. The guys who, for me, are "elegant" players always turn out to be very good players, to have good musical knowledge and good facility on their instrument. Non guitaring examples would be two fab drummers - Jim Keltner and Ian Herman.

And I think that there's a curve that is followed, that has to be followed because you have to have the chops before you can start figuring out what to do with them.

An example for me is Guy Buttery whose most recent album is much more satisfying, more engaging than those that came before him. He's young and very talented and worked hard on his chops initially. It's like (and I give him as an example of something I think is not uncommon, I've heard similar observations about Doyle Dykes) he had to build up his vocabulary so that he could start being more discerning about what to say. I think the chops come first and THEN the musicality.

make-and-do

Serve the song.
All that's needed.

(and yes I love p90's)

PeachyDragon

The Seymour Duncan website has a great section with recordings of all their pickups in the
same guitar playing the same lick. If you listen to the P90's on there and then to the Alnico II pro pickups
you will notice that they are VERY similar. Those pickups rock!

kayDUB

Warren wrote I never said self-taught guitarists are incapable of being good band members, just that, in general, they're the least focused on what is good for the band. Like any generalisation, it can be disproved with some simple examples. Andy Summers was a self taught guitarist too, but The Police were not a power trio: they went a different route, adding plenty of space to their music.

I think that any of the top bands have necessarily worked out a system where each player has their space. But the average garage band is quite the opposite. My ex-drummer wouldn't stop moaning about how guitarists just couldn't shut up when you got more than one of them plugged in on one stage. It's all about riffs and solos for us. ? Being in a band for any decent amount of time will require that you learn to fit in somewhere with the other instruments, or they'll likely kick you out. Unless you're Dan Patlansky, where the whole band is really centered around the lead guitarist because they're the talent people are actually coming to see.

When you compare the average bedroom guitarist with musicians who cut their teeth playing in church bands, or school bands or jazz bands etc. it's very easy to see the difference between the two: the latter have learned to be sensitive to each instrument or voice (even if they don't realise it), whereas the former is primarily worried about scales, riffs, power chords and tone, and is not particularly aware of what the bass, drums and vocalists are doing. ? I was exactly the same until I learned, from other band members, that an extremely simple pattern of notes which sounds almost laughable on its own can sound wonderful in the right mix. And, on the contrary, how a billion notes per second can spoil an otherwise great arrangement.

I just happen to really respect musicians who are obviously very technically capable, but who exercise great restraint in their playing for the good of the song. Obviously there are plenty of counter-examples (in the guitar world especially) where very technically capable players constantly show off outstanding technique, all while remaining very musical (Paul Gilbert is my current favourite). Or players like Clapton or Hendrix who had a wild and unbridled style of music which was actually built around their personal sound and technique.

But we talk about those players a lot, whereas there is also plenty to lean from players like Stuart Matthewman or Andy Latimer or Lindsey Buckingham or even Andy Summers.

Preach it brother! ?

I think the issue is not "self-taught", but "self-playing" guitarists. Guitarists that only play by themselves can't learn how to play in a band - unless of course like you say the band is built around the guitarist's talent.

My problem is I HAVE to play to fit into the band since on my own all my bad playing is exposed ?

And P90s rock!

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