Fake Fender Stratocasters

kp247 · 2011-10-13T13:25:41+00:00

Just throwing something at you here. I've recently played some oke's Fender Strat when I was down in CT and it was a truly great guitar and I took it for a...

Fake Fender Stratocasters

Keira-WitherKay

This post and the replies just goes to show how brand or lets say top brand conscious muso's are in fact in all walks of life . And yes having that fender made in usa or gibson on the head stock is a status symbol , at my gigs i get people some muso's some just fans first complimenting my guitar sound and then you can lay a bet the next thing out of their mouths is . . . Is that a usa tele ? So yes say what you want but the brand war is very active in music industry . So maybe thats why people label partcasters with top brands to score that extra attention . And i'm not saying the brand issue is right but it is the way of the world

vic

Keira WitherKay wrote: This post and the replies just goes to show how brand or lets say top brand conscious muso's are in fact in all walks of life . And yes having that fender made in usa or gibson on the head stock is a status symbol , at my gigs i get people some muso's some just fans first complimenting my guitar sound and then you can lay a bet the next thing out of their mouths is . . . Is that a usa tele ? So yes say what you want but the brand war is very active in music industry . So maybe thats why people label partcasters with top brands to score that extra attention . And i'm not saying the brand issue is right but it is the way of the world

Correct Keira. Brands such as Fender, Gibson, Martin and others have built their reputation over a long period of time (circa 100+ years in the case of Gibson and Martin) and top-class players have endorsed these instruments over decades for good reason. These names (on the headstock) sell instruments by association with quality and that's why these instruments, or designs based on these, are copied and faked so widely. ?

Bob-Dubery

Well for me all this about a maker's reputation and who endorses what is the business of the maker and the endorsers. The problem boils down to selling something that it is not what it appears to be. If you've got a Warmoth body and a genuine Fender neck complete with decals and you offer it to me and you tell me that it's a Warmoth body with a Fender neck then that's OK. If you try to sell it to me as a Fender custom shop guitar then that's not OK.

A variant would be you having some strat replica and selling it to somebody as "the same guitar that Ritchie Blackmore plays". That's also not OK, and for the same reasons - the seller is misrepresenting the goods.

I do think that sometimes this happens out of ignorance, so I suppose it's a case of "let the buyer beware". Some years ago I went with a drummer friend of mine to look at a drum kit that was up for sell. I'd phoned the seller and he told me that it was a Ludwig kit. I asked what model or model line and he said "re-plicker". I told the drummer that I thought something odd was going on but he said it costs nothing to have a look and so off we went. The kit didn't have a single part with a Ludwig logo on it and was clearly a knock off. I think somewhere on the kit or on the paperwork it said "replica". I don't know if the seller had been lead up the garden path when he bought the kit and genuinely didn't know what was going on. I mentally gave him the benefit of the doubt but also told him that the kit wasn't Ludwig and wasn't worth what he was asking for it.

Wizard

Vic wrote: I guess it all depends on your agenda whether to keep the logo or to remove it.
But clearly if you are going to use the neck to add to a homemade body you should remove the logo...

A very good point - just never thought about it.
If I do source a 2nd hand neck I will rebrand the neck with "Wizard Strat".
?

Another interesting question while we're on the subject.
I have upgraded the Hammer Slammer to ridiculous extremes.

The bridge alone cost more than twice of what I paid for the whole guitar.
The only remnants of the original guitar are the (plywood) body and the neck.
Everything else has been changed.

The original essence of this thread was one of fraud, intentional or otherwise, where a low quality instrument masqueraded as something better.
Does the argument work the other way?

The question is purely academic as it would be insane to try and sell this guitar in this form.

AlanRatcliffe

Remember, that as trademark holder, Fender is legally bound to protect their trademarks or risk losing them (as they - and Gibson - did with body shapes). Somewhere I have a 32 page document from Fender detailing all their their trademarks and how they are to be used (including size, colours and backgrounds), which goes some way to detailing how seriously they take their trademarks.

From an official/legal standpoint, you may assemble and use a guitar with a Fender neck without removing the logo. What you may not do is sell it without removing said logo. It's not actively policed (as it's demonstrably impossible to do so), but legally it is still a trademark infringement to sell a non-Fender guitar with a Fender logo (even if part of the guitar is Fender).

Licensed necks may be used on Fender guitars, but the licensing covers only the headstock shape, not the logo. If you want to replace a Fender neck and keep the logo, you have to deal only with Fender (and must return the broken neck before being allowed to buy the replacement). Seems silly when you can pick up parted-out Fender necks on E-Bay easily, but legally Fender has to do this to keep their trademarks (they have to be able to prove in a court of law that they are doing everything possible to control the use of the trademarked items).

Strictly speaking, it is also illegal to sell a Fender neck with logo intact. Once again, this is not policed and, to be honest, while Fender would be legally within their rights to stop any and all such sales, the backlash from the guitar-playing community would make it a PR nightmare. If they had anticipated the size and extent the replacement parts business would achieve, they would have done this from the beginning (the way brands like Rickenbacker do) and by now no-one would question their right to do so (also, once again, the fact that they have not actively prosecuted people in the past for this will count against them if they try and enforce it now).

Guaranteed, if you are making replicas of Fenders and fitting Fender logos and selling them, it is only a matter of time before the legal gorillas come knocking. They have been known to serve smaller manufacturers (Lentz, Suhr) with cease and desists for merely being too similar, relying on the respondent's inability to afford a drawn-out legal battle.

I remember a thread on another forum (gasp!), where owners of top boutique guitars like Suhr, D'Pergo, Lentz, Tyler, Grosh were moaning about members of the public asking them if they were hoping to "upgrade to the real thing some day". ? So yeah - the logo is important to many people, not just Fender themselves.

vic

Wizard wrote:
Vic wrote: I guess it all depends on your agenda whether to keep the logo or to remove it.
But clearly if you are going to use the neck to add to a homemade body you should remove the logo...
A very good point - just never thought about it.
If I do source a 2nd hand neck I will rebrand the neck with "Wizard Strat".
?

Another interesting question while we're on the subject.
I have upgraded the Hammer Slammer to ridiculous extremes.The bridge alone cost more than twice of what I paid for the whole guitar.
The only remnants of the original guitar are the (plywood) body and the neck.
Everything else has been changed.

The original essence of this thread was one of fraud, intentional or otherwise, where a low quality instrument masqueraded as something better.
Does the argument work the other way?

The question is purely academic as it would be insane to try and sell this guitar in this form.

Same thing I would say...call it a "Hammer Wizard Slammer" ? ......just be upfront with a buyer and no harm done. The problem comes when an enlightened buyer sells your "No-CASTER" as the real deal and puts you at risk of being labeled a "faker"when the new buyer discovers he/she bought a "fake". Remember the muso fraternity is a small one.

Wizard

I have probably broken copyright anyway by making a strat copy body from the exact Fender blueprints.

vic

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Remember, that as trademark holder, Fender is legally bound to protect their trademarks or risk losing them (as they - and Gibson - did with body shapes). Somewhere I have a 32 page document from Fender detailing all their their trademarks and how they are to be used (including size, colours and backgrounds), which goes some way to detailing how seriously they take their trademarks.

From an official/legal standpoint, you may assemble and use a guitar with a Fender neck without removing the logo. What you may not do is sell it without removing said logo. It's not actively policed (as it's demonstrably impossible to do so), but legally it is still a trademark infringement to sell a non-Fender guitar with a Fender logo (even if part of the guitar is Fender).

Licensed necks may be used on Fender guitars, but the licensing covers only the headstock shape, not the logo. If you want to replace a Fender neck and keep the logo, you have to deal only with Fender (and must return the broken neck before being allowed to buy the replacement). Seems silly when you can pick up parted-out Fender necks on E-Bay easily, but legally Fender has to do this to keep their trademarks (they have to be able to prove in a court of law that they are doing everything possible to control the use of the trademarked items).

Strictly speaking, it is also illegal to sell a Fender neck with logo intact. Once again, this is not policed and, to be honest, while Fender would be legally within their rights to stop any and all such sales, the backlash from the guitar-playing community would make it a PR nightmare. If they had anticipated the size and extent the replacement parts business would achieve, they would have done this from the beginning (the way brands like Rickenbacker do) and by now no-one would question their right to do so (also, once again, the fact that they have not actively prosecuted people in the past for this will count against them if they try and enforce it now).

Guaranteed, if you are making replicas of Fenders and fitting Fender logos and selling them, it is only a matter of time before the legal gorillas come knocking. They have been known to serve smaller manufacturers (Lentz, Suhr) with cease and desists for merely being too similar, relying on the respondent's inability to afford a drawn-out legal battle.

I remember a thread on another forum (gasp!), where owners of top boutique guitars like Suhr, D'Pergo, Lentz, Tyler, Grosh were moaning about members of the public asking them if they were hoping to "upgrade to the real thing some day". ? So yeah - the logo is important to many people, not just Fender themselves.

+100. I guess this settles the matter then ? ?
So guys, get rid of them Fender marked necks !! ?

vic

Wizard wrote: I have probably broken copyright anyway by making a strat copy body from the exact Fender blueprints.

Don't worry Wiz....All "Eastern" manufacturers do the same ! ?

MikeM

I am still going to use a Fender decal on my neck.

Bob-Dubery

Vic wrote:
Wizard wrote: I have probably broken copyright anyway by making a strat copy body from the exact Fender blueprints.
Don't worry Wiz....All "Eastern" manufacturers do the same ! ?

Well many of them do, but does that amount to copyright infringement? Do Martin have a case against anybody else who makes guitars with a dreadnought body shape?

It's not just "Eastern" manufacturers either. Plenty of companies in other parts of the world make parts that look just like the Fender or Gibson part - and that includes bodies. Fender and Gibson are not seeking to prevent those companies making those parts.

Look at these on the Gibson web site. The Fender influence (or copying) is clear, but they're NOT trying to pass it off as a Fender.

Sean

I actually find it appealing if it has "Whatever name" and then "Custom built" or "Custom guitars" under it. I really don't see the attraction of having the "Fender" name on it. I've lost count of how many times people have now asked me "Is that a Fender?", and I've answered, "No, it's a custom built strat" ?

tonerider

rich365 wrote:
Like this?
Musikraft neck on Warmoth body!

Nice, I remember this guitar! I've played it about 2 years ago in Cape Town. Stainless steel frets, 14 inch radius, quarter sawn one piece maple neck, candy apple body, Lace Holy Grail pickups? Right?

Yip, I remember! It was sold as parts recently!