Pickup position and 22/24 fret guitars / scale length

PeachyDragon

This topic poses more questions than answers... I read up a bit on the
topic of neck pickup placement etc...

Some people say a 24 fret guitar is horrid because the 24 fret is where the neck
pickup should be... Others say that the pickup is on the anti-node of the string
which is horrible for the sound it picks up... What the heck?

Les Paul's have their neck pickup located there which is apparently
why they are muddy...? But don't fenders have the same pickup location?

Anyone know more?
Will post links below.
While we are on the topic... Anyone have strong opinions on why a 24 fret or 22 fret
should be 24 and a bit inches scale length or 25 inches?

Links:
I love that Ed Roman is opinionated but I would take anything he says with a pinch of salt.
http://www.edroman.com/techarticles/22vs24.htm

Just some light reading:
http://www.guitarplayerscenter.com/guitar-repairs-upgrades/what-is-better-a-22-fret-or-24-fret-guitar/

Reading for the UBER scientist:... (I didn't bother to comprehend this one!)
http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponse/index.html

Malkav

I prefer the sound of a 24 fret neck normally, people claim it's not as warm/mellow but honestly the difference is quite miniscule and more or less a matter of taste ?

To me the ideal scale length soundwise is 25 1/2" however I find 27" scales more comfortable, and 28,325" to feel a bit too much like a bass. 24,75" can be okay but it wouldn't be my preference, in general the strings just don't have enough snap to me which throws off my alternate picking. The way I've had it explained is that it bassicaly boils down to a smaller scale will have a better midrange, which is why 27" scales etc all sound brighter and more snappy. In an interview with a guitarist I read he said that to take it to an extreme a shorter scale will sound more like a banjo (in that nasely kinda mid heavy way) a longer scale will sound more like a piano with the notes being more defined and crystaline.

These are just things I've read and noticed between my 25,5" and 27" guitars. I'm sure other people can pitch in with more details as I may just be imagining things ? I think at the end of the day the difference between pickup placement however is just personal taste and in some cases negligible.

Also the only brand I know of that uses 25" is PRS, also not a scale length I'm mad about but yet again that's just an opinion.

PeachyDragon

Do you like very bright tones Chad? Play metal much? your scales sound extreme... 28 inches?
The pick-up position is apparently more than just personal preference.
If the pick-up is where the 24 fret would be it is on a harmonic node where the string
vibration does very specific things... or so I am told.

Malkav

PeachyDragon wrote: Do you like very bright tones Chad?

I honestly think I prefer the sound of a 25,5" scale for the sake of versatility, but for cleans and more defined distorted sounds the longer scales can be magical ?

PeachyDragon wrote: Play metal much? your scales sound extreme... 28 inches?

I play metal occasionally ? Most production 8 strings tend to come in extended scales, Ibanez 8 strings favour a 27" scale, ESP & Schecter favour 26,5", and quite a few Agiles can be purchased with either a 28,325" scale (I may be wrong about the exact measurement but it's definitely over 28") some Agiles are also available in a 30" scale length. They all have their tonal advantages and disadvantages and I think the best compromise is to have a light fan 27" - 25,5" if you use an 8 string and want to have 2 extra low notes, 25,5" - 24" if you want to have a low B and a high A ?

PeachyDragon wrote: The pick-up position is apparently more than just personal preference.
If the pick-up is where the 24 fret would be it is on a harmonic node where the string
vibration does very specific things... or so I am told.

I have read these articles before and though I get what they are talking about at the same time from what I understood of them the better positions for getting more harmonics would be with a 24 fret neck so I'm not fussed either way as that's what I like ? I think it's a personal preference thing as it seems that opinions on it differ, also I pretty much ignore guitars that don't have 24 frets so I guess I'm a bit biased ?

Norman86

possibly a stupid question, but is it not possible to have a fender scale with 24 frets, without moving the pickups??

PeachyDragon

Hi Norman. No its not possible. The 12 fret needs to devide the string in exactly 1 quarter and the 24th fret needs to divide it in half to make the right pitch. The that node where the pickup is will always be In that spot. But I tend to agree with chad. Sounds to me like its better not to have the pickup there. You can always cut those high frequencies on eq to get the muddy tone from the neck pickup. I just posted to see if other share my view. Will have 24 frets on my custom guitar. Still think I want 24,75 inch neck or whatever the les paul standard is. Not sure, I just like warmer tones.

AlanRatcliffe

Every single note has multiple node points along the string and they change for each note - it's one of the many things that influence the tonality of the pickup positioning. So regardless of where you place the pickup, it will be on a node for at least one note (and don't forget humbuckers have a much wider string sensing aperture because they cover two points on the string, so cover a wider range of nodes).

So don't worry too much about node points - place for tone (or just go with the standards for a specific scale length - they have been proven to work well) and just watch out for obvious problems with open note harmonics (and even that's not a deal breaker - ever try get the 5th fret harmonic on a Tele neck pickup?).

ryanguit

okay so pretend you have a 27" inch scale 24 fret guitar tuned DGCFAD. then you put a capo on 2nd fret and you mess around jamming in the 14th fret. you are effectively jamming 12th fret on a 22 fret guitar thats std tuned and you've moved the position of your neck pickup to the other position... main catch: strings will need to be the right guage to do any real audible and neck feel comparisons. my rule of thumb is:
if you play 9's on a strat (25.5) then you play 10's on a LP scale.
(to get the exact same feel for bending.) its not perfect but its better than just using the same gauge on your your guitars and saying "I prefer this guitar feel".
i break my own rule as i quite like 10's on my LP copy. but play 9's, 10's, 11's on my strat copies. so the LP feels like an 80's Ibanez even though it has the biggest neck. sneaky sneaky. so for the above test you would put 10's on your 27" guitar with the capo to get an accurate sound feel.

Malkav

A 27" scale would have more tension with 10s so it wouldn't feel the same just because of a capo, and you should never string with anything lighter than 10s ?

The pickup probably wouldn't sound the same either as a capo on the 2nd fret doesn't necessarily mean the scale is now exactly 25,5" and the neck pickup distance would probably still not sit relative to the node.

ryanguit

10's tuned DGCFAD 27" == 10's tuned 25.5 EADGBE measure the distance from 2nd fret saddle... you'll be surprised. and yes all the node points move. 7th fret "open" harmonic (with said capo) is the 5th fret open harmonic now?

PeachyDragon

I just realized this node discussion is ridiculous. Every time we fret a note the nodes move. Pfft. So silly then! Fretting the 2nd fret moves the node to where the 26th fret would be etc. So there's no right or wrong unless you play excessive open strings.