Gibson says nobody plays in standard tuning anymore, so:

Jack-Flash-Jr · 2011-09-15T11:50:25+00:00

This is from their site: http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/Features/drop-tuning-0915-2011/ [quote]it’s almost a quaint curiosity when a band chooses to...

Gibson says nobody plays in standard tuning anymore, so:

VellaJ

singemonkey wrote:
Tokai SA wrote: If you want an electric guitar for multiple tunings then there's only one, the Line 6 Tyler Variax.
That however doesn't change string tension does it? It just simulates alternate tunings. The fretking retunes the guitar quickly and efficiently.

I like that Fretking. Apparently sometime in the (relatively) near future the bridges will be available on their own, to be installed in your own guitar. Want to check out if I can mod my axe for that...

Keira-WitherKay

I must say i still don't get this product ? i mean does it mean folks out there can't re tune in the time it takes to talk between tunes and i also question what if the system goes faulty while on stage can it be dis engaged to allow manuel tuning or will it lock up your tuners . Cos even best gear goes faulty and usually at a gig ? also most people i know use different guage string when they use alternate tuning and keep a guitar setup in that tuning . So the more i think about this the more i think it's a gimmick more than an essential oh and how much extra weight does it add to guitar ? Would motorised tuners make a well balanced guitar neck heavy ? tar ? Would motorised tuners make a well balanced guitar neck heavy ?

singemonkey

Well yes Keira, I think that motorised tuners do make those guitars neck heavy. Check out the Fretking vid though for the bridge option.

Obviously it's not a solution for everyone. But for me, a strat scale-length with .10s on would be good for slide, fingerpicking, and straight blues/rock type playing. Believe me, my band-mates bullied me into getting an A/B switcher pedal, cos the swine got grumpy about the time it took just to change cables between two pre-tuned guitars - let alone retuning a guitar (which then still needs to settle in to open E because of the extra tension on the neck).

For someone in that position, the Fretking bridge allowing you to finish the last chord of a song, switch a knob, strum a silent chord, pick your slide off the stand and be ready to go by the time the drummer's finished hitting the cymbals would be very convenient indeed.

Bob-Dubery

Amazingly nobody, either at Gibson or here at GFSA, mentioned Keith Richards who has been playing guitars in open G (and with 5 strings) for years.

I don't think the demise of standard tuning is imminent but there is a lot of use of non-standard tunings and beyond the world of finger-picking folkies. Tunings are just tools. They're not a cheat. There are something that you can't play in standard tuning. Non-standard tunings generally open some doors for you but close others.

I wonder how long "standard" tuning has been standard anyway. There used to be lots of different ways of tuning a guitar (and the guitar hasn't always had 6 strings anyway). American players on the west coast used to talk about "sevastopol tuning" because that's what Russian sailors from that port usually used.

I must say that until I took some tentative steps into the world of open tunings it never occured to me that they were in widespread use. Yet there were some things that just seemed impossible to replicate. Trying playing some of Keef's stuff in standard tuning and playing it EXACTLY as he played it. It's not easy. I struggled for some time with the chords in Led Zeppelin's "Rain Song" and couldn't figure them out. At some later point I found out that Jimmy Page had used a slack-key tuning for that song. Aha..... now it was easier. Most of Nick Drake's guitar parts can't be reproduced with standard tuning. In fact since Drake never tabbed anything out and didn't leave much in the way of notes, Nick Drake fans have spent a long time figuring out the tunings that he used - and hoping they got it right.

I don't think that having to retune between songs is the end of the world - because I've seen people do it and do it repeatedly in a set. Why it should be the kiss of death is beyond me. It might be different in a pub or in a club where people go to dance to the music. Some audiences or genres might take more kindly to it than others. But thinking back to live records I used to have, there were some where you could hear the retuning between songs (and I figured that often they just edited it out on other live records). I can recall a live Dylan and The Band album where there are a couple of occasions where somebody is retuning - it doesn't take that long and neither Dylan or anybody in The Band are the type to talk a lot between songs. I'm pretty sure I remember some retuning going on during CSNY's Four Way Street.

Hahaha! What never occured to me was that they were doing anything other than getting their guitar back into tune because they'd bent something out of tune during the preceding number. It never occured to me that they were moving from one tuning to another, though looking back now it's so obvious that that's what they must have been doing as some of those strings were shifting by a whole tone.

Squonk

I find that alternate tuning opens up the Guitar for me. The string tension is also factor, that's why the Line 6 guitars just wouldn't do it for me.

e.g. tuning down to DADGAD, the first 2 strings are both tuned a tone down, and obviously the tension has now changed, there is also a complete different ring to the strings. I also enjoy capoing on the second fret in DADGAD, enabling the 4th, 5th and 6th strings to be ready for tapping(Higher Tension) and percussive playing.

Retuning between songs hasn't bothered me either, it might bother the audience ? but it has hampered me at all.

A great way to get into alternate tuning is to play a regular song and adapt it to the alternate tuning. Just this weekend I was having a go at Supertramps 'Breakfast in America" and it sounds quite different in DADGAD and even in dropped D.

Jack-Flash-Jr

singemonkey wrote: Well yes Keira, I think that motorised tuners do make those guitars neck heavy. Check out the Fretking vid though for the bridge option.

Obviously it's not a solution for everyone. But for me, a strat scale-length with .10s on would be good for slide, fingerpicking, and straight blues/rock type playing. Believe me, my band-mates bullied me into getting an A/B switcher pedal, cos the swine got grumpy about the time it took just to change cables between two pre-tuned guitars - let alone retuning a guitar (which then still needs to settle in to open E because of the extra tension on the neck).

For someone in that position, the Fretking bridge allowing you to finish the last chord of a song, switch a knob, strum a silent chord, pick your slide off the stand and be ready to go by the time the drummer's finished hitting the cymbals would be very convenient indeed.

If you didn't kick your pedals off the stage when bending down, drop the slide behind the bass drum, get your strap hooked on the mic stand and lose a shoe in the process we'd be less fussy.

Back on topic though, I think the key is versatility. Standard is the most versatile in that you can get the most different feels, sounds and songs from one tuning (not least because it's the one we're most comfortable with). Keef plays a lot of open G but his open G songs all have the same Keef sound (which is great mind you). Too much though and you've got a problem. Singe's open E would start annoying me beyond a couple of songs, but it sounds killer for his Pete Green slide.

Bob-Dubery

Jack Flash Jr wrote: Back on topic though, I think the key is versatility. Standard is the most versatile in that you can get the most different feels, sounds and songs from one tuning (not least because it's the one we're most comfortable with). Keef plays a lot of open G but his open G songs all have the same Keef sound (which is great mind you). Too much though and you've got a problem. Singe's open E would start annoying me beyond a couple of songs, but it sounds killer for his Pete Green slide.

Standard tuning became "standard" because it made barre chords easier. Once the guitar got to 6 strings tuning in 4ths as it historically had been (in Europe at least) was a problem because the 2nd string would then be a C and the 1st an F. In order to move shapes up and down the neck you wanted barres, and they became a practical proposition once the 2nd went down by a tone and the 1st by a semi-tone.

Barre chords are a big part of playing guitar, so I guess that standard tuning, or any tuning where the strings maintain that relation to each other, is versatile because of that.

I do think, actually, that altered tunings are less versatile - though a capo solves a lot of problems - but for some things they are better, or are the only way to get the piece played.

Another cool thing about non-standard tunings is that they suggest new possibilities to you. Also, as Squonk says, the guitar sounds different. DADGAD sounds lekker, so does that EEEEBE tuning I mentioned earlier.

Jack-Flash-Jr

DADGAD is my favourite by far. I had an acoustic in that tuning for years... spent hours doing variations of Black Mountainside ?
I should add that Page claimed it was in various different tunings (low B) and another with a bunch of sharps in different interviews but the tab book I had was DADGAD...
I haven't heard Black Waterside (the folk song) he took it from yet.

nick_D01

BMU wrote: Gibson's adeptness at embarrassing themselves is quite remarkable. Do they have a special department for that? An intern training course perhaps?

singemonkey

Jack Flash Jr wrote: I haven't heard Black Waterside (the folk song) he took it from yet.

I gave it to you. It's on the Bert Jansch album called Jack Orion. You'll notice more Page rip-offs when you hear the first track too. Cheeky bugger.

Didn't Segovia popularise standard tuning? Less finger stretching to get to any notes you need. But it too has a sound. And other tunings have their sounds. Mostly it's what you can do with open strings which sound very different from fretted strings.

With slide you have a big problem in standard in that it's very difficult to form chords. You have very limited options in that regard in standard tuning. But it's not a useless tuning for slide - and is made more useful by the fact that you can whip the slide off and go straight back into conventional playing. Mick Taylor was a major proponent of standard tuning slide. Check out his solo on Sway.

Jack-Flash-Jr

singemonkey wrote:
Jack Flash Jr wrote: I haven't heard Black Waterside (the folk song) he took it from yet.
I gave it to you. It's on the Bert Jansch album called Jack Orion. You'll notice more Page rip-offs when you hear the first track too. Cheeky bugger.

Didn't Segovia popularise standard tuning? Less finger stretching to get to any notes you need. But it too has a sound. And other tunings have their sounds. Mostly it's what you can do with open strings which sound very different from fretted strings.

With slide you have a big problem in standard in that it's very difficult to form chords. You have very limited options in that regard in standard tuning. But it's not a useless tuning for slide - and is made more useful by the fact that you can whip the slide off and go straight back into conventional playing. Mick Taylor was a major proponent of standard tuning slide. Check out his solo on Sway.

Check out his everything on Sway. One of the greatest "Stones" songs ever. Cool, I'll check out the Jansch... (every time I boot up itunes it goes straight to the Mac Boston and I can't click away ? )
The nice thing about Standard and Stones is that you've got three open G strings to work with ?

Edit: listening to it now. Well, he lifted it straight off the trad. But gave it more bite.

Bob-Dubery

singemonkey wrote: With slide you have a big problem in standard in that it's very difficult to form chords. You have very limited options in that regard in standard tuning. But it's not a useless tuning for slide - and is made more useful by the fact that you can whip the slide off and go straight back into conventional playing. Mick Taylor was a major proponent of standard tuning slide. Check out his solo on Sway.

In standard tuning strings 1 to 3 would give you an inverted minor triad, strings 2 to 4 would give you an inverted major triad - so with a bit of care and thought (and practice) you could play slide with regular tuning.

Isn't Taylor one of those guys that plays slide not just with standard tuning but with a regularly set up guitar so that he can use slide and a finger behind the slide?

I have used a regularly tuned guitar for slide. If you just want to play a melody then it's fine. If you want to self accompany or to play whole chords whilst playing slide then an open tuning has advantages.

singemonkey

X-rated Bob wrote:
singemonkey wrote: With slide you have a big problem in standard in that it's very difficult to form chords. You have very limited options in that regard in standard tuning. But it's not a useless tuning for slide - and is made more useful by the fact that you can whip the slide off and go straight back into conventional playing. Mick Taylor was a major proponent of standard tuning slide. Check out his solo on Sway.
In standard tuning strings 1 to 3 would give you an inverted minor triad, strings 2 to 4 would give you an inverted major triad - so with a bit of care and thought (and practice) you could play slide with regular tuning.

Isn't Taylor one of those guys that plays slide not just with standard tuning but with a regularly set up guitar so that he can use slide and a finger behind the slide?

Yes. And I'm frankly utterly bewildered that so many people seem to assume you need to jack up your action to play slide. All that does is limit you. It's crazy.

I have used a regularly tuned guitar for slide. If you just want to play a melody then it's fine. If you want to self accompany or to play whole chords whilst playing slide then an open tuning has advantages.

Exactly as you say. Taylor was mostly accompanying a rhythm guitar and playing single note slide leads. So standard tuning - although it forces you to jump around a bit with the slide - is no great disadvantage.

Bob-Dubery

singemonkey wrote: Yes. And I'm frankly utterly bewildered that so many people seem to assume you need to jack up your action to play slide. All that does is limit you. It's crazy.

Well it makes things like not hitting the frets a lot easier. I've played lap slide on a regularly setup and tuned guitar. Now if I can do that then I'm sure the likes of Jerry Douglas can - but they chose to play with massive actions. So there's something to it.

singemonkey

X-rated Bob wrote:
singemonkey wrote: Yes. And I'm frankly utterly bewildered that so many people seem to assume you need to jack up your action to play slide. All that does is limit you. It's crazy.
Well it makes things like not hitting the frets a lot easier. I've played lap slide on a regularly setup and tuned guitar. Now if I can do that then I'm sure the likes of Jerry Douglas can - but they chose to play with massive actions. So there's something to it.

Lap, pedal, and Hawaiian are different. You can't fret the guitar when it's lying flat. No disagreement there. It makes life easier - especially if you're using a big heavy bar like you tend to on a lap or pedal guitar.

But with the guitar in the normal position, saying it's easier to not hit the frets would be like saying taking the bottom two strings off makes it easier to play a D chord cleanly. It's like, "yeah. Duh. But now you're missing two strings. Just learn to play properly and you don't have to do that."

Use a normal action - not too low, not too high - and learn to use the correct light slide pressure so that you don't fret out. Contact is enough. You don't need to press the string down with the slide.