Vick
Keira WitherKay wrote
I think it's not about power but tone . And as we all know our tube amps all have a sweet spot . Where it's worth the effort to drag to gigs to get that sound your amp offers . And i'm writing this 20 min before i start a gig and i dragged in my tube amp where i could have just used my modeler and saved a trip to car but i just love that tone i get from the amp so yes if in my case that tone comes from a 15 watt amp or if some rocker needs the tone of 100 watt stack so be it . But in my books short of a kemper type modeling device that seems to be the first modeler to get it right . In my books Tube amps equal tone
This is it right here: "...in my case that tone comes from a 15 watt amp or if some rocker needs the tone of 100 watt stack so be it."
Different people, different needs, different desires, different amps...its all good.
The issue I have is with people that refuse to comprehend something so simple.
AlanRatcliffe
Singe is right IMO. The need for over 50 Watts in any venue is a thing of the past. PA has changed and improved and and can now do all the heavy lifting while giving the soundman more control to create a better FOH mix.
Those that still use them are being bloody minded about it and are limiting the places they can play - I know for a fact that the Blues Cruise has said they will never have Bonamassa back because he insisted on using two 100W amps which just dumped all over everything else there and cleared out the audience.
I play a Twin BTW - but I never overdrive it and use an attenuator with about 9-12 dB gain reduction. I have never turned it above three and a half without the attenuator (and that was an outdoor gig with 1kW of PA). I'd trade it for a Deluxe in a heartbeat (although I'd probably put in a silicon rectifier for my tone).
Tokai-SA
Three examples of guitarists I watch live.
Best live tone I've heard from Peter Hanmer is when he uses his Marshall TSL602 2x12 combo, in any venue, even a small venue.
It's a heavy amp and he doesn't like carrying it so these days he goes with his pedalboard into a H&K Red Box into the PA, he still sounds amazing....great guitarist, could make a Roland Micro Cube sound great live.
Mark Beling plays through a Fender Twin with volume on 3.5.
Pedals, Keeley Compressor, Keeley Blues Driver, 1988 RAT, TG Electronics G-System for delay and Chorus.
Went to watch him on Friday night in a VERY SMALL venue, he used a Tele...could be the best live guitar tone I've heard in ages.
Ridiculously good guitarist.
Gavin Morein plays a Les Paul through a 100w Marshall TSL head into a 2x12, in large and small venues.
Compressor pedal up front always on and a bunch of other pedals.
Great tone, great guitarist.
If you arrive at a gig and there's a 100w Marshall or Fender Twin, etc, etc, waiting on the stage you can be sure you'll have great tone and enjoy the gig.
Never seen a guitarist gig with a 5watt amp. ?
msch997
Tokai SA wrote
Gavin Morein plays a Les Paul through a 100w Marshall TSL head into a 2x12, in large and small venues.
Compressor pedal up front always on and a bunch of other pedals.
Great tone, great guitarist.
If you arrive at a gig and there's a 100w Marshall or Fender Twin, etc, etc, waiting on the stage you can be sure you'll have great tone and enjoy the gig.
Never seen a guitarist gig with a 5watt amp. ?
Saw "Flys" at the corner house a week or two back, was initially getting the guitar sound from the PA speakers, was okay. Moved forward and stood directly in front of the guitarist (Gavin Morein) and the sound I got was directly from the 100w Marshall TSL head and the 2x12, was heaven, not overly loud as the venue has a thatched roof and that does bleed the sound I think, but heaven, watched all the sets from that spot never moved back to PA fed spots again.
Mike
ryanguit
so basically we have big amps for those big gigs where you want to impress a guitarist in the front row... seems a bit backward right?
but countless bands have had engineers mess up big amps and small amps live so there is no guarantee that you will sound good with either.
i have found that when the engineer gets your sound right according to the crowd, people compliment your amp, AND i have found people defend my sound when the engineer gets a whole night of mixes wrong with alcohol ears and they come to the front or hear my amp roar on stage. they arent going to defend an amp they can't hear... you'll just be the guy with **** tone. so i will always gig with a bigger amp than i need with an engineer i don't know. and save my back with an engineer i do.
oh and people are big eyes with small ears most of the time. so i guess i side with Vick. if its a war. haha just kidding.
ezietsman
Couple of things.
Firstly, some people want a bigger amp than needed if the sound guy is going to bugger up the mix, in which case you can turn up more so you can hear yourself. The mix in that case will be crap anyway so good tone is of secondary importance.
Secondly, the kind of tone you want goes into the decision regarding the amp size (I'm talking about valve amps, this doesn't apply to the other stuff). A big amp with floorpedals or channel switching is great if:
1. you want your clean sound and your overdrive sound to be at the same volume
2. you like the overdrive/distortion from your pedals
3. you like preamp drive in your amp (sounds much like pedals in general)
4. you switch pedals/channels/patches to get different tones
However, if you're like me and like the sound of a cranked tube amp, not the 'sweet spot' where it drives a little, I mean really cranked to give that amp about to explode type thing and you use the guitar controls instead of patches and channels, then a big amp is going to be a hassle. Unfortunately, cranked like that most 20 watt and over will be much too loud for most gigs through an efficient 2x12. Forget about doing that with anything over 50 watt, ever. Your hearing will get damaged and your audience will hate you. Its uncomfortable playing that loudly, I like the feeling of the vibrations in my body when I play my amp loud like that but only for 30 seconds or so then my ears complain. If you don't feel the pain you've buggered up your ears already.
If you see a guitar player with a 100 watt Marshall or twin and he has distortion going and your ears are not hurting, he/she is not getting power tube drive, that amp can go much louder still. He/She is most likely using drive channel or a pedal or attenuating that amp to a high degree.
Tokai-SA
ezietsman wrote
If you see a guitar player with a 100 watt Marshall or twin and he has distortion going and your ears are not hurting, he/she is not getting power tube drive, that amp can go much louder still. He/She is most likely using drive channel or a pedal or attenuating that amp to a high degree.
The guitarists I'm talking about are all using the amps clean channel and pedals for distortion.
You're correct, their amps are not cranked enough to get power tube distortion.
shaunf
ezietsman wrote
If you see a guitar player with a 100 watt Marshall or twin and he has distortion going and your ears are not hurting, he/she is not getting power tube drive, that amp can go much louder still. He/She is most likely using drive channel or a pedal or attenuating that amp to a high degree.
Or, if it's a
clever 100watt Marshall, you can have power amp distortion at bedroom volumes... 8)
ezietsman
shaunf wrote
ezietsman wrote
If you see a guitar player with a 100 watt Marshall or twin and he has distortion going and your ears are not hurting, he/she is not getting power tube drive, that amp can go much louder still. He/She is most likely using drive channel or a pedal or attenuating that amp to a high degree.
Or, if it's a
clever 100watt Marshall, you can have power amp distortion at bedroom volumes... 8)
indeed. Amps with vvr is great but last time i brought up the subject i was told people doesn't like tone sucking solid state stuff in their precious amps?
MikeM
ezietsman wroteindeed. Amps with vvr is great but last time i brought up the subject i was told people doesn't like tone sucking solid state stuff in their precious amps?
You talking about Karel's thread?
shaunf
ezietsman wrote
shaunf wrote
ezietsman wrote
If you see a guitar player with a 100 watt Marshall or twin and he has distortion going and your ears are not hurting, he/she is not getting power tube drive, that amp can go much louder still. He/She is most likely using drive channel or a pedal or attenuating that amp to a high degree.
Or, if it's a
clever 100watt Marshall, you can have power amp distortion at bedroom volumes... 8)
indeed. Amps with vvr is great but last time i brought up the subject i was told people doesn't like tone sucking solid state stuff in their precious amps?
There's no pleasing some people. They will find something to complain about even when there isn't anything.
All I know is that the 100 watt half stack I bought 7 months ago is the most versatile amp I've ever owned. I can play it at anytime, as loud as is comfortable during the day, or down low late at night or with my kids sleeping in the next room, and always with the master volume at over 7 with the power valves cooking and sounding great. As such it sees use almost every day. I couldn't be happier. Now try that with even a 5 watter....
ezietsman
Yep. Exactly. That is why my 18 watt has vvr too. Without it i won't be able to play it the way its meant to be played. All amps should have it. Even the non believers will use it because well, its awesome.
singemonkey
I think the problem there is that an amp that's attenuated say, 15% will sound closer to its best than an amp that's attenuated 65%. If there's a tone-sucking element, it affects more powerful amps more - because obviously you have to be heavier handed with the attenuation to hit the same volume.
I just frankly think it's perverse to run these amps - famous for their massive power amp overdrive - clean, and then use floorpedals to put the drive back in. You're running a solid state preamp (the pedal) for all your drive and merely using your classic 100watt Hi-Watt head to boost the volume and give it some warmth. An amp like that is capable of giving you a vastly superior, true tube overdrive - but only at face removing volumes or heavily attenuated.
Those amps rightly didn't become famous for those master-volume or floorpedal-driven sounds. That's why, having only heard 100watt amps played with master volume, pre-amp distortion, or with the inevitable overdrive pedal in front of the amp playing clean, I was blown away to hear a <20watt amp cranked. Suddenly, there was the sound I heard on records. Live at Leeds, Back in Black, The Bluesbreakers with Eric Clapton, The Song Remains the Same, Get Yer Ya-Yas Out, Fleetwood Mac at the Boston Tea Party.
They were not running clean amps with pedals. They used fuzz pedals to get zany sounds, and boosters to give them a lift, but not the way big amp-owners now use overdrive pedals to simulate that sound of the amp played beyond a volume their venues can handle. Nor were they cranking the pre-amps alone. Those amps sound totally different with the power amp going full tilt. And what they sound a helluva lot like is a 20watt amp going full tilt. But they sound nothing like a 100watt with a tubescreamer in front of it.
And the magic of being able to totally control your overdrive with a flick of the volume knob (and I have a heralded floorpedal which is advertised as one of the most "dynamic" and tube like out there, and it doesn't come close to giving me that ability to go from pure roar to chimey clean with quarter turn of the knob). Suddenly your overdrive pedal is your guitar volume knob - and your control is vastly enhanced. The drive pedals just stay at home. Because:
They were only there to sound like a cranked tube amp anyway
MikeM
Personally, I think the magic of big amps, is how they drive the speakers. Obviously more air is being moved, so they sound bigger, but the higher wattage also gets some speaker distortion. You won't get that if you're running 10 watts into 60 watts worth of speakers.
This how spiel of driving just the poweramp is just one part of the puzzle. Getting distortion from the phase inverter is a major part of getting that cranked overdrive sound - one of the (many) reasons a little single ended amp doesn't sound like a 20watter. Take any iconic amp, pop a PPIMV in, crank the volume and turn down the master volume, there will be preamp and PI distortion.
Point is, running an 18watter cranked into a single G12H or similar, will get you pretty dam near to a a big amp - just smaller.
ezietsman
yeah the PPIMV (For those who don't know, its a volume control between the phase inverter and the power tubes) will help you get some drive at lower volumes and just how much depends on the specific amp. Those classic awesome sounds were pretty much a mixture of some preamp drive, some phase-inverter drive and some power section drive. Point is, driving the preamp and PI is easy, driving a 100 watt power section is not.
Speaker distortion is also part yes, there's unfortunately no low volume solution to that one unless someone can make low efficiency low wattage speakers that sounds like the classics (G12H, Celestion Blue etc) we like.
Of course, there's another side to this story. Some people like a volume boost during solos. Easy right? Stomp on your clean boost pedal and thats it? On a driven amp this will not result in more volume but more drive. Somewhat tricky to get past if you're used to the pedal options. Solution on a driven amp? drive it more and roll your guitar down a notch for your normal drive sound, that will reduce the volume a bit and give less drive, roll it back to 10 to get slight volume and drive boost. Slightly different, not as easily to control but thats the only way. (No one said using a driven amp is easy ? )
MikeM
ezietsman wrote
yeah the PPIMV (For those who don't know, its a volume control between the phase inverter and the power tubes) will help you get some drive at lower volumes and just how much depends on the specific amp. Those classic awesome sounds were pretty much a mixture of some preamp drive, some phase-inverter drive and some power section drive. Point is, driving the preamp and PI is easy, driving a 100 watt power section is not.
Speaker distortion is also part yes, there's unfortunately no low volume solution to that one unless someone can make low efficiency low wattage speakers that sounds like the classics (G12H, Celestion Blue etc) we like.
Yup, what I was really getting at is that there's not just one factor to getting those iconic tones that some of us aim to achieve.
25watts into 1x 100db speaker is pretty similar to 100watts into 4x100db speakers, just at a quarter of the volume.
On the topic of volume boosts, that's where it'd be awesome to kick in a second amp.. Heheh rock some wet/dry solos ?
Reinhard
I'm ashamed of owning big amps now.
They sound glorious,but I still feel bad.
ezietsman
Reinhard wrote
I'm ashamed of owning big amps now.
They sound glorious,but I still feel bad.
No you don't ?
Garren
It does seem better to mic up a smaller amp for all the reasons mentioned...
BUT
I love drowning out my drummer just to peeve him off ?
I don't know much about valve amps but is there no difference in tone
between having say 2x 6l6s or 4x 6l6s?
It seems intuitive that by using the same valves and speakers
but by halving the amount you would get the same tone but softer?
PS. My favourite amp ever is a JTM 45, IMO sounds just as big as a 100w
plexi or what have you but a 3rd of the power. ?
MikeM
It's not as simple as just pulling 2 tubes etc.. That usually decreased the load on the PT so probably bumps the voltage up, decreases sag and and and... You can design an amp with 2x 6L6s to sound like a 4x 6L6 one. You could get pretty close with 6V6s even, some tweaks, particularly in terms of the filtering to get the more piano like bass of 6L6s.
But yep it's pretty close ?
