Big amps, WTF are they for?

ezietsman

yeah the PPIMV (For those who don't know, its a volume control between the phase inverter and the power tubes) will help you get some drive at lower volumes and just how much depends on the specific amp. Those classic awesome sounds were pretty much a mixture of some preamp drive, some phase-inverter drive and some power section drive. Point is, driving the preamp and PI is easy, driving a 100 watt power section is not.

Speaker distortion is also part yes, there's unfortunately no low volume solution to that one unless someone can make low efficiency low wattage speakers that sounds like the classics (G12H, Celestion Blue etc) we like.

Of course, there's another side to this story. Some people like a volume boost during solos. Easy right? Stomp on your clean boost pedal and thats it? On a driven amp this will not result in more volume but more drive. Somewhat tricky to get past if you're used to the pedal options. Solution on a driven amp? drive it more and roll your guitar down a notch for your normal drive sound, that will reduce the volume a bit and give less drive, roll it back to 10 to get slight volume and drive boost. Slightly different, not as easily to control but thats the only way. (No one said using a driven amp is easy ? )

MikeM

ezietsman wrote: yeah the PPIMV (For those who don't know, its a volume control between the phase inverter and the power tubes) will help you get some drive at lower volumes and just how much depends on the specific amp. Those classic awesome sounds were pretty much a mixture of some preamp drive, some phase-inverter drive and some power section drive. Point is, driving the preamp and PI is easy, driving a 100 watt power section is not.

Speaker distortion is also part yes, there's unfortunately no low volume solution to that one unless someone can make low efficiency low wattage speakers that sounds like the classics (G12H, Celestion Blue etc) we like.

Yup, what I was really getting at is that there's not just one factor to getting those iconic tones that some of us aim to achieve.

25watts into 1x 100db speaker is pretty similar to 100watts into 4x100db speakers, just at a quarter of the volume.

On the topic of volume boosts, that's where it'd be awesome to kick in a second amp.. Heheh rock some wet/dry solos ?

Reinhard

I'm ashamed of owning big amps now.
They sound glorious,but I still feel bad.

ezietsman

Reinhard wrote: I'm ashamed of owning big amps now.
They sound glorious,but I still feel bad.

No you don't ?

Garren

It does seem better to mic up a smaller amp for all the reasons mentioned...
BUT
I love drowning out my drummer just to peeve him off ?

I don't know much about valve amps but is there no difference in tone
between having say 2x 6l6s or 4x 6l6s?

It seems intuitive that by using the same valves and speakers
but by halving the amount you would get the same tone but softer?

PS. My favourite amp ever is a JTM 45, IMO sounds just as big as a 100w
plexi or what have you but a 3rd of the power. ?

MikeM

It's not as simple as just pulling 2 tubes etc.. That usually decreased the load on the PT so probably bumps the voltage up, decreases sag and and and... You can design an amp with 2x 6L6s to sound like a 4x 6L6 one. You could get pretty close with 6V6s even, some tweaks, particularly in terms of the filtering to get the more piano like bass of 6L6s.

But yep it's pretty close ?

vic

Last weekend we played a gig at Sundays River (the entrance to the Addo National Park in the Eastern Cape)....attended by a few 100 people. Now how do you present a small Roland cube for such an occasion ?......like this. ? Sounded veeery good indeed. Apologies for the pic quality

Stoner-Riff

http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=all&q=jucifer&m=text - check out this duo. Jucifer.

For some bands, a 30Watt amp will just not do.

Try and give High On Fire, SLEEP, Electric Wizard, 'Ol Scratch, Boris, Sunn O))), Earth, Shirenbuilder, a 30watt combo (per guitarist) and they will not be able to get 'their sound' live, no matter what.

MIKA-the-better-one

YEH!!! Boris, High on Fire, Converge, SUNN o

nick

MikeM wrote: Personally, I think the magic of big amps, is how they drive the speakers. Obviously more air is being moved, so they sound bigger, but the higher wattage also gets some speaker distortion. You won't get that if you're running 10 watts into 60 watts worth of speakers.

This I totally agree with and have experienced. 8)

AlanRatcliffe

nick wrote:
MikeM wrote: Personally, I think the magic of big amps, is how they drive the speakers. Obviously more air is being moved, so they sound bigger, but the higher wattage also gets some speaker distortion. You won't get that if you're running 10 watts into 60 watts worth of speakers.
This I totally agree with and have experienced. 8)

Yeah, but miking up a small amp and putting it through an accurate PA means the PA speakers are doing the big air movement thing. Has the big advantage of you not going deaf by age 35 like the guys pictured above likely will (and as a muso, how much is your hearing worth to you?).

If you really must have speaker distortion what stops you from running 10W into 10W of speakers? For that matter, how much distortion do you figure eight Vintage 30s are adding to a 100W Marshall (let alone G12K100s)?

HairMetal84

Just about anything above 15w is enough for a normal show.
not every amp range has lower wattage versions. so you are basically deciding on tone and/or weight or
if you have sound restrictions. Who cares if you've got a Peavey 6505+ (for example) and never have the
volume past 3/4 or you have Fender twin that never goes past 3. If it sounds good that's all that matters.
Are you really going to feel bad that you aren't using the full volume of the amp (even though i hear this often)?
Do you feel like your amp is too much for you, because you don't have the eq dimed?? I doubt it.

Bigger amps sound better just about 99% of the time - if you have a combo vs the head version of the combo,
the head will sound better/bigger at cranked gig level. If you've got volume restrictions then you'd be better off
with a smaller amp or an attenuator or effects unit to cut some volume down.

ActionArnie

With an enthusiastic drummer 15W may be a bit light if you're needing crystal clean when your amp is also used for monitoring. Never experienced real quality monitors but the one's I have experienced don't convey the sound of my rig well so I prefer using only the amp for monitoring.

Stoner-Riff

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
nick wrote:
MikeM wrote: Personally, I think the magic of big amps, is how they drive the speakers. Obviously more air is being moved, so they sound bigger, but the higher wattage also gets some speaker distortion. You won't get that if you're running 10 watts into 60 watts worth of speakers.
This I totally agree with and have experienced. 8)
Yeah, but miking up a small amp and putting it through an accurate PA means the PA speakers are doing the big air movement thing. Has the big advantage of you not going deaf by age 35 like the guys pictured above likely will (and as a muso, how much is your hearing worth to you?).

If you really must have speaker distortion what stops you from running 10W into 10W of speakers? For that matter, how much distortion do you figure eight Vintage 30s are adding to a 100W Marshall (let alone G12K100s)?

Guitarists can be a funny bunch.
While i agree with you, that a 10W speaker can produce speaker break up in a 12W 5E3 Deluxe Tweed like amp . . . some people might not like the tone of the lil 10Watt driver, and might perfer the higher watt Vintage 30's.
We all know (or should at this point in our lives) that every single speaker sounds diff from one another, hence the fact that are so many on the market today.

Stoner-Riff

ezietsman wrote: In connection with some discussion that went on inside a Hellfire Blues Club thread. Saw this today, looks like a great amp, 22 Watt, sounds like them old big Marshalls, has 2 6V6 power toobz. Interestingly, the maker's comments on 100 watt You-know-whats.

I agree, 18 watt is plenty.

Your question is deff NOT a new one.
Almost every guitar forum form here to Timbuk2 & back, has this very question atleast 2 or 3 times a year. Every year !!!

http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?t=219148&highlight=100+watt

http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2931&highlight=100+watt

Both are GREAT reads btw ?

Hope this helps.

MikeM

Stoner Riff wrote:
Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Yeah, but miking up a small amp and putting it through an accurate PA means the PA speakers are doing the big air movement thing. Has the big advantage of you not going deaf by age 35 like the guys pictured above likely will (and as a muso, how much is your hearing worth to you?).

If you really must have speaker distortion what stops you from running 10W into 10W of speakers? For that matter, how much distortion do you figure eight Vintage 30s are adding to a 100W Marshall (let alone G12K100s)?

Guitarists can be a funny bunch.
While i agree with you, that a 10W speaker can produce speaker break up in a 12W 5E3 Deluxe Tweed like amp . . . some people might not like the tone of the lil 10Watt driver, and might perfer the higher watt Vintage 30's.
We all know (or should at this point in our lives) that every single speaker sounds diff from one another, hence the fact that are so many on the market today.

Come come Alan. You know not all speakers are equal. My point was that a 25watt amp into 1x speaker is going to sound very similar to a 100 watter into 4. And we all know speakers we like don't always respond linearly.