Keira-WitherKay
yes it seems to be the understanding in the industry at moment that 15-22W is more than sufficient if you mic'ing up .........
and lets not forget it's hugely dependant on your style of music......
but hey even tho my ideal gig amp is a 15W combo for jazz, the sight of a wall of marshalls is enough to make any musician even jazz muso's just wonder what it would be like to be standing in front of that with 60 000 people screaming at you .......to be keith richards for a day .cool guitars , huge rig ....huge stage ....huge pay cheque ? it's just rock and roll
ezietsman
Reinhard wrote:
vic wrote:
nick wrote:
I think we need to get the Plexi + 18watter in the same room and test this theory 8)
To be honest...I think anyone who has experienced the room-filling goodness of a Marshall stack or a few AC30's played in stereo or a clean Fender Twin will agree that there's nothing to match it. And it's NOT about volume or loudness...
Nick pulled 2 tubes on the plexi and played it on 8. I was sitting opposite it and while it was loud, it wasn't THAT loud. Modern tube watts seem a lot louder. Nick's old Classic 30 was only 30W, but that thing was insanely poweful.
We did that with mine at G-Spot at the end of one gig. Not a small room. We put the VVR up to the full 18 watt instead of the half power which is enough for Hellfire's unmic'd gigs. It hurts. Sounds great but it hurts. Maybe Nick's doesn't push as much as it should, maybe its less efficient speakers, but I know that unless we're playing outdoors on a big stage I won't be putting mine on full power any time soon (well I do when I've had a few beers and want to 'test' it).
MIKA-the-better-one
Big amps are totally dependant on style and sound good with certain music.
If I was making big crazy noise rock still, with delays, ring mods, phasers etc..... I would ideally run a twin or bassman.... with an ac30......
But I am not.....
none the less I suggest smaller amps these days thanks to frequent run ins with sound men....
BluJu
I just downgraded from a Super Twin Reverb to a Laney Cub 10. I get this whole cranked up thing but you don't need to crank your twin to 12 to get it sounding good. It just always sounds good, and a crisp clean sound is the best thing to have when using quality pedals. I would have loved to keep the Twin but it was simply too big and heavy to be practical. Nothing beats a good ol' giant fender amp. So now I'm using my newly acquired cub (which I love) until something like a Deluxe Reverb or Marshall 2061x comes around.
Vick
I think its time someone said it..."Tiny amp syndrome"
not all people that make use of lower power amps suffer
from this, but a couple do, its oky to use a smaller amp.
People don't have to go around, pointing fingers at
Guys that use larger amps in an atempt to justify themselves.
There is a time and place\type of music\venue\reason for both.
I'm going for the applicationon(individual's logic) + I want
to use ______(individual'illogical) middle ground.
There is no universal right or wrong here...
At the end of the day,irrelevantnt of what the guy is using,
a twin, or a Tiny Terror, give him a hige 5 if his playing is cool.
singemonkey
Erm. No. Really. I have a 50watt tube amp that I've never been able to turn up beyond 3 at any live venue ever. If I'd been on a really big stage I could do it - go up to 6 and blast my hearing. On those stages you have monitors for that. So I have small amp envy. Not big amp envy.
Seriously, even stadium pros have to weigh up whether it's worth putting up with insane stage volumes in order to crank 100watt amps. I see some folks like Joe Bonnamassa have them perspex shields in front of their amp so that it doesn't raise stage volumes too high.
Huge amps were designed for a reason. Venues were getting bigger and their amps needed more power. That reason died with the development of high powered PA systems in the 70s. You can play to Knebworth stadium with a 5watt Champ and you, and the audience will hear it perfectly.
So the benefit of big amps then becomes:
1. They're crazy heavy to lug around
2. The venue has to be huge if you want to get any power amp drive out of them
3. They can kill your hearing with unnecessarily loud stage volumes - if you rely on amp volume instead of these things called, "monitor speakers".
4. They're critical to get enough volume when you time travel back to 1967 and play in a 2,000 seat theater with a 60watt announcer's PA.
Oh wait. Those aren't advantages. As the guy in the vid says. The magical device called "the microphone" brings you all the volume you need since 1975.
Vick
singemonkey wrote:
Erm. No. Really. I have a 50watt tube amp that I've never been able to turn up beyond 3 at any live venue ever. If I'd been on a really big stage I could do it - go up to 6 and blast my hearing. On those stages you have monitors for that. So I have small amp envy. Not big amp envy.
Seriously, even stadium pros have to weigh up whether it's worth putting up with insane stage volumes in order to crank 100watt amps. I see some folks like Joe Bonnamassa have them perspex shields in front of their amp so that it doesn't raise stage volumes too high.
Huge amps were designed for a reason. Venues were getting bigger and their amps needed more power. That reason died with the development of high powered PA systems in the 70s. You can play to Knebworth stadium with a 5watt Champ and you, and the audience will hear it perfectly.
So the benefit of big amps then becomes:
1. They're crazy heavy to lug around
2. The venue has to be huge if you want to get any power amp drive out of them
3. They can kill your hearing with unnecessarily loud stage volumes - if you rely on amp volume instead of these things called, "monitor speakers".
4. They're critical to get enough volume when you time travel back to 1967 and play in a 2,000 seat theater with a 60watt announcer's PA.
Oh wait. Those aren't advantages. As the guy in the vid says. The magical device called "the microphone" brings you all the volume you need since 1975.
So, as you just mentioned, Mr. Bonnamassa uses what kind of amps? do you think he would be lugging them around + the perspex shield's you speak of
if he could be using something else?
BTW Bonnamassa has a sig. amp, designed to his specification...it's a nice, big old 100watt.
This man could have any thing built, sourced and designed, and he often makes use of his
name and finances to do exactly that, to get the tone he wants...and he wants a 100watt.
http://www.jbonamassa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=15716
You have discredited your own argument.
Want to try again?
IceCreamMan
i have nothing to add to the jist of the conversation but nice big amps look menacining and mean.....while i may not actually have a use for one i would love to own one to crank every now an again and watch the paint peel off the walls.... something ethereal
in the same vein there is no need for ferrari's or 200 bhp superbikes ...but dayum they are a rush when pushed.... PA's have come a moerofa long way and they great for listening to bands , large amps are great for feeling the music ..yeah yeah i dont quite make sense sometimes...
singemonkey
Guess again. You can use high powered amps to get that sound if you (a) play large enough venues that the quarantined amp is still not to loud and (b) quarantine the amp behind perspex.
For a top end pro like Bonamassa, that's worth doing. Roadies lug his amps. He plays big venues so that the volume of the shielded amp is not too great, and he's far enough from the speaker to save his ears. There's space on stage to set up the shielding.
He is in a position to get every ounce of tone out of those amps without overwhelming the venue or damaging his hearing. How many of us are? Are you Vick?
Keira-WitherKay
I think it's not about power but tone . And as we all know our tube amps all have a sweet spot . Where it's worth the effort to drag to gigs to get that sound your amp offers . And i'm writing this 20 min before i start a gig and i dragged in my tube amp where i could have just used my modeler and saved a trip to car but i just love that tone i get from the amp so yes if in my case that tone comes from a 15 watt amp or if some rocker needs the tone of 100 watt stack so be it . But in my books short of a kemper type modeling device that seems to be the first modeler to get it right . In my books Tube amps equal tone
Vick
singemonkey wrote:
Guess again. You can use high powered amps to get that sound if you (a) play large enough venues that the quarantined amp is still not to loud and (b) quarantine the amp behind perspex.
For a top end pro like Bonamassa, that's worth doing. Roadies lug his amps. He plays big venues so that the volume of the shielded amp is not too great, and he's far enough from the speaker to save his ears. There's space on stage to set up the shielding.
He is in a position to get every ounce of tone out of those amps without overwhelming the venue or damaging his hearing. How many of us are? Are you Vick?
The point that I have stated, since the beginning, is that there is a time\place\desire
for these amps, for 100watt amps,5watt amp and everything in between...that's it.
Do you agree or not?
MikeM
A 50watt 212 would be cool imo. Will drive the speakers as well as a big amp and be around half the volume of a 100watt 412.
Vick
Keira WitherKay wrote:
I think it's not about power but tone . And as we all know our tube amps all have a sweet spot . Where it's worth the effort to drag to gigs to get that sound your amp offers . And i'm writing this 20 min before i start a gig and i dragged in my tube amp where i could have just used my modeler and saved a trip to car but i just love that tone i get from the amp so yes if in my case that tone comes from a 15 watt amp or if some rocker needs the tone of 100 watt stack so be it . But in my books short of a kemper type modeling device that seems to be the first modeler to get it right . In my books Tube amps equal tone
This is it right here: "...in my case that tone comes from a 15 watt amp or if some rocker needs the tone of 100 watt stack so be it."
Different people, different needs, different desires, different amps...its all good.
The issue I have is with people that refuse to comprehend something so simple.
AlanRatcliffe
Singe is right IMO. The need for over 50 Watts in any venue is a thing of the past. PA has changed and improved and and can now do all the heavy lifting while giving the soundman more control to create a better FOH mix.
Those that still use them are being bloody minded about it and are limiting the places they can play - I know for a fact that the Blues Cruise has said they will never have Bonamassa back because he insisted on using two 100W amps which just dumped all over everything else there and cleared out the audience.
I play a Twin BTW - but I never overdrive it and use an attenuator with about 9-12 dB gain reduction. I have never turned it above three and a half without the attenuator (and that was an outdoor gig with 1kW of PA). I'd trade it for a Deluxe in a heartbeat (although I'd probably put in a silicon rectifier for my tone).
Tokai-SA
Three examples of guitarists I watch live.
Best live tone I've heard from Peter Hanmer is when he uses his Marshall TSL602 2x12 combo, in any venue, even a small venue.
It's a heavy amp and he doesn't like carrying it so these days he goes with his pedalboard into a H&K Red Box into the PA, he still sounds amazing....great guitarist, could make a Roland Micro Cube sound great live.
Mark Beling plays through a Fender Twin with volume on 3.5.
Pedals, Keeley Compressor, Keeley Blues Driver, 1988 RAT, TG Electronics G-System for delay and Chorus.
Went to watch him on Friday night in a VERY SMALL venue, he used a Tele...could be the best live guitar tone I've heard in ages.
Ridiculously good guitarist.
Gavin Morein plays a Les Paul through a 100w Marshall TSL head into a 2x12, in large and small venues.
Compressor pedal up front always on and a bunch of other pedals.
Great tone, great guitarist.
If you arrive at a gig and there's a 100w Marshall or Fender Twin, etc, etc, waiting on the stage you can be sure you'll have great tone and enjoy the gig.
Never seen a guitarist gig with a 5watt amp. ?
msch997
Tokai SA wrote:
Gavin Morein plays a Les Paul through a 100w Marshall TSL head into a 2x12, in large and small venues.
Compressor pedal up front always on and a bunch of other pedals.
Great tone, great guitarist.
If you arrive at a gig and there's a 100w Marshall or Fender Twin, etc, etc, waiting on the stage you can be sure you'll have great tone and enjoy the gig.
Never seen a guitarist gig with a 5watt amp. ?
Saw "Flys" at the corner house a week or two back, was initially getting the guitar sound from the PA speakers, was okay. Moved forward and stood directly in front of the guitarist (Gavin Morein) and the sound I got was directly from the 100w Marshall TSL head and the 2x12, was heaven, not overly loud as the venue has a thatched roof and that does bleed the sound I think, but heaven, watched all the sets from that spot never moved back to PA fed spots again.
Mike
ryanguit
so basically we have big amps for those big gigs where you want to impress a guitarist in the front row... seems a bit backward right?
but countless bands have had engineers mess up big amps and small amps live so there is no guarantee that you will sound good with either.
i have found that when the engineer gets your sound right according to the crowd, people compliment your amp, AND i have found people defend my sound when the engineer gets a whole night of mixes wrong with alcohol ears and they come to the front or hear my amp roar on stage. they arent going to defend an amp they can't hear... you'll just be the guy with **** tone. so i will always gig with a bigger amp than i need with an engineer i don't know. and save my back with an engineer i do.
oh and people are big eyes with small ears most of the time. so i guess i side with Vick. if its a war. haha just kidding.
ezietsman
Couple of things.
Firstly, some people want a bigger amp than needed if the sound guy is going to bugger up the mix, in which case you can turn up more so you can hear yourself. The mix in that case will be crap anyway so good tone is of secondary importance.
Secondly, the kind of tone you want goes into the decision regarding the amp size (I'm talking about valve amps, this doesn't apply to the other stuff). A big amp with floorpedals or channel switching is great if:
1. you want your clean sound and your overdrive sound to be at the same volume
2. you like the overdrive/distortion from your pedals
3. you like preamp drive in your amp (sounds much like pedals in general)
4. you switch pedals/channels/patches to get different tones
However, if you're like me and like the sound of a cranked tube amp, not the 'sweet spot' where it drives a little, I mean really cranked to give that amp about to explode type thing and you use the guitar controls instead of patches and channels, then a big amp is going to be a hassle. Unfortunately, cranked like that most 20 watt and over will be much too loud for most gigs through an efficient 2x12. Forget about doing that with anything over 50 watt, ever. Your hearing will get damaged and your audience will hate you. Its uncomfortable playing that loudly, I like the feeling of the vibrations in my body when I play my amp loud like that but only for 30 seconds or so then my ears complain. If you don't feel the pain you've buggered up your ears already.
If you see a guitar player with a 100 watt Marshall or twin and he has distortion going and your ears are not hurting, he/she is not getting power tube drive, that amp can go much louder still. He/She is most likely using drive channel or a pedal or attenuating that amp to a high degree.
Tokai-SA
ezietsman wrote:
If you see a guitar player with a 100 watt Marshall or twin and he has distortion going and your ears are not hurting, he/she is not getting power tube drive, that amp can go much louder still. He/She is most likely using drive channel or a pedal or attenuating that amp to a high degree.
The guitarists I'm talking about are all using the amps clean channel and pedals for distortion.
You're correct, their amps are not cranked enough to get power tube distortion.
shaunf
ezietsman wrote:
If you see a guitar player with a 100 watt Marshall or twin and he has distortion going and your ears are not hurting, he/she is not getting power tube drive, that amp can go much louder still. He/She is most likely using drive channel or a pedal or attenuating that amp to a high degree.
Or, if it's a
clever 100watt Marshall, you can have power amp distortion at bedroom volumes... 8)
