Re: Quantity Vs Quality - single vs multi-effects

mtmattan · 2011-09-04T21:02:30+00:00

Hi all, I've been playing guitar for about 5 years, but this has been the year of effects pedals. (Oh man I love this forum!!) What I'm still struggling to...

Re: Quantity Vs Quality - single vs multi-effects

singemonkey

It's at this point that I always have to chime in and remind folks that while analogue pedals are expensive, they retain their value after the initial drop (not at all if bought 2nd hand) so you'll get most of your money back selling. Digital multi-fx begin a sharp dive towards zero ront the minute they're released. So you pay less, but you'll end up throwing it away and paying again for the one with the new tech. Or you upgrade more quickly when you can still get half the value - but then you're buying more often too. It's the digital model ('scuse the pun).

Of course some digital individual effects go the same way too. I try to minimise those. Only my reverb is digital - and it will devalue.

nick

singemonkey wrote: It's at this point that I always have to chime in and remind folks that while analogue pedals are expensive, they retain their value after the initial drop (not at all if bought 2nd hand) so you'll get most of your money back selling. Digital multi-fx begin a sharp dive towards zero ront the minute they're released. So you pay less, but you'll end up throwing it away and paying again for the one with the new tech. Or you upgrade more quickly when you can still get half the value - but then you're buying more often too. It's the digital model ('scuse the pun).

Of course some digital individual effects go the same way too. I try to minimise those. Only my reverb is digital - and it will devalue.

Very true, an 80s Boss pedal probably sells secondhand now for more than it cost to buy back then and people still want it. Anyone want a Zoom505? ?

AlanRatcliffe

BTW, Don't forget it is also possible to have both quality and quantity. Look at the T.C. Electronic G-System... Couple that with a few of your favourite stomps, a couple of quality rack units (e.g. T.C Fireworx & Eventide HD) and a good valve amp or two and it's basically untouchable until things like a custom-built Bradshaw rig. The downside is complexity and that it's a fairly big rig, but then, when you reach that level, anything is.

PeachyDragon

my 10 cents... Ive played a collection of 8 boss stompboxes at one time which were very neatly set up
on a board with a line selector to avoid tap-dancing. I always have, and always will play valve amps.
The only exception was the first amp I ever owned and a little Vox I have that's just convenient to have.

On the stompboxes I never got the sound I wanted... one day I tried a BOSS GT-6... it seemed
amazing... one buttona nd you get your smooth overdriven vintage sound etc... Although
I noticed that one sound was literally just that... a sound... no dynamics, no variations, no true bypass,
no clean up when you roll the volume back and the pedal crushed my dynamics even on the bypass and clean
settings...

I discovered the Vox multi-effects and I was blown away... the bypass and dynamics are perfect and
the sounds it can generate all have soul. I just use 2 or 3 patches over and over, maybe duplicating one patch
at 2 volumes for solos and rhythm work... That way I dont overcomplicate things and can actually spend time
getting to know my guitar... If I play one note on a crappy Line6 practice amp and I took myself from 10 years ago
and had the younger me play the same note, the amp would sound better with the current version of me... After
enough time you simply learn to play the instrument... BB King would sound like BB King if he was playing a Squire
through a Roland Cube... It's in the fingers. Multi-effects can be amazing and arent as tone-sucking as people say. As I
said, I really dislike the Boss GT pedals. But it's all about emotion and playing the guitar. Don't forget that.

singemonkey

PeachyDragon wrote: BB King would sound like BB King if he was playing a Squire
through a Roland Cube... It's in the fingers. Multi-effects can be amazing and arent as tone-sucking as people say. As I
said, I really dislike the Boss GT pedals. But it's all about emotion and playing the guitar. Don't forget that.

Yes. But he'd sound like B.B. King playing a Squire through a Roland Cube, wouldn't he. I much prefer B.B. King playing a custom made 355 through a whatever the heck vintage Fender he plays. And I know which B.B. would prefer.

Clapton on a strat still sounds like Clapton. It's just that that version of Clapton isn't quite as entrancing as it turns out. Put him back on a 335 and, guess what? God's back in business.

When we're talking about guitar and amp tone, we're talking about everything that isn't in the fingers. Otherwise great guitar players would sound identical no matter which guitar/amp/effects they use. They don't. That's why they own a variety of equipment - because they know it changes the tone that's "all in the fingers."

MIKA-the-better-one

singemonkey wrote:
PeachyDragon wrote: BB King would sound like BB King if he was playing a Squire
through a Roland Cube... It's in the fingers. Multi-effects can be amazing and arent as tone-sucking as people say. As I
said, I really dislike the Boss GT pedals. But it's all about emotion and playing the guitar. Don't forget that.
Yes. But he'd sound like B.B. King playing a Squire through a Roland Cube, wouldn't he. I much prefer B.B. King playing a custom made 355 through a whatever the heck vintage Fender he plays. And I know which B.B. would prefer.

Clapton on a strat still sounds like Clapton. It's just that that version of Clapton isn't quite as entrancing as it turns out. Put him back on a 335 and, guess what? God's back in business.

When we're talking about guitar and amp tone, we're talking about everything that isn't in the fingers. Otherwise great guitar players would sound identical no matter which guitar/amp/effects they use. They don't. That's why they own a variety of equipment - because they know it changes the tone that's "all in the fingers."

Amen brother

PeachyDragon

I agree with you Singemonkey. I'm just agreeing with the previous statement as well about how guitarists can end up playing 200 tones in one gig and not actually play anything worthwhile.

MikeM

Thanked that post Singe ?

TS10

Pedals can hide a lot of flaws, but there is definitely a skill to clever use of them, especially stomp boxes. Look at the Edge, who in my opinion is a pretty average player in terms of technical skill, but has an instantly recognisable sound built largely around his judicious use of delay and other effects.

Muse and Radiohead also take this approach to extreme levels.

I think the key, like Singemonkey infers, is a solid foundation. A vintage AC30 or Fender Blues Jr paired with a decent Strat or LP is gonna sound awesome whether used with stomp boxes or a multi FX board.

Start with the basics, and build from there - very hard to polish a turd ?

Jacquesg4j

Mika I loved that video! Very cool!

ANYhow I just want to add something... My opinion... Pedals do not create tone, they just help shape it. Pedals are just the stairway to "tonal" variety. You have to have your stairway built on a solid foundation (which is your tone). Yes you can play very simple things with the right effects (like delay), but it doesn't make you any less of a great guitarist! Even though I don't see the Edge sweep picking every 2 minutes, his playing is contributing to making U2 what it is today.

Basic point... You have to be happy with your tone from guitar to amp, you shouldn't buy pedals to make you like your tone... I look at it the same way as I look at drinking... DON'T DRINK TO FEEL BETTER, DRINK TO FEEL EVEN BETTER

SO... DON'T ADD PEDALS TO MAKE YOUR TONE BETTER, ADD THEM TO MAKE IT EVEN BETTER!!

arjunmenon

PeachyDragon wrote: On the stompboxes I never got the sound I wanted... one day I tried a BOSS GT-6... it seemed
amazing... one buttona nd you get your smooth overdriven vintage sound etc... Although
I noticed that one sound was literally just that... a sound... no dynamics, no variations, no true bypass,
no clean up when you roll the volume back and the pedal crushed my dynamics even on the bypass and clean
settings...

Not sure about the GT6, but the GT10 doesn't kill anything. Sure it's not TB but you still get to keep your dynamics. On an overdriven setting, i've gone from dirty to clean just by easing up on the picking hand and turning down the vol on the guitar a bit. Sure, its value will plummet and it has a bigger learning curve than a single effect unit but i bet nobody walks into a guitar store thinking, "Gee, what pedal can i buy that i can resell in a year or two?"
In general, my biggest gripe is that a whole lot of nouveau cork-sniffers (note: i'm leaving the serious cork-sniffers out here) go on about dynamics and true bypass etc when they still haven't figured out what can be had just from the volume and tone knobs on a guitar, and from changing the way they hit a string.

TS10 wrote: I think the key, like Singemonkey infers, is a solid foundation. A vintage AC30 or Fender Blues Jr paired with a decent Strat or LP is gonna sound awesome whether used with stomp boxes or a multi FX board.

+1. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Gearhead

I only use one effects machine, it's digital and it has not depreciated more than 5% over the last four years. It is called the G-Force and it goes second hand for the same money as four boutique pedals. You get the sound of two hundred different boutique pedals and the complexity only kills you if you do not know how to download presets from the net. In any chain of effects you model you can switch individual stompboxes on and off. The only things it does not model are amps and cabs, but then again you want to have those anyway.

singemonkey

Gearhead wrote: I only use one effects machine, it's digital and it has not depreciated more than 5% over the last four years. It is called the G-Force and it goes second hand for the same money as four boutique pedals. You get the sound of two hundred different boutique pedals and the complexity only kills you if you do not know how to download presets from the net. In any chain of effects you model you can switch individual stompboxes on and off. The only things it does not model are amps and cabs, but then again you want to have those anyway.

And when the G-force 2 comes out at the same money the G Force 1 used to cost?

Gearhead

If, not when ?
It will depreciate, obviously. It's just that this kind of gear does not do so quite as quickly as the others. Take for instance the 2290, it still goes for hideous amounts second hand, over $1200 on eBay.

Stoner-Riff

For me, it is deff QUALITY, over quantity.

Just look at some of the major guitar players.
Unless you are in Radiohead or that scruffy looking bloke in RHCP, or in a worship band (ever notice how many pedals they have ?), why do you need 10-25 pedals on your board. Or even one pedal that can do 10 diff types of dirt.
Unless you are in a cover band, playing other peoples stuff, you only need YOUR tone, and i cant remember the last time i heard a well known guitarist with 5-10, or even 12 diff dirt tones.
GOD, ermmmm, Jimmy Page has one dirt tone, Slash has one dirt tone, Jack White has one and a half (grity transparent tone and a Big Muff tone), and, and, and.

Look how many pedals (total) they have :

Slash has maybe 3.
Jack White has 4 (and that incl. a tuner)
Garry Moore (R.I.P.) hardly had any.
Rory Galhagar had 1 (most of the time)
Angus & Malcolm has zero.
Liz Buckingham has non (most of the time)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/japangil/5512239682/ <--- count her pedals.

Right now, i have on my board :

Fuzz -->OD -->Trem -->Vibe -->Delay -->AMP

(PS : all analog path, incl my EHX DMM delay)

MIKA-the-better-one

stoner riff gets it

AlanRatcliffe

Who says quantity and quality are mutually exclusive? The OP was about using some of the more multi-function pedals vs. single-purpose models.

Sure, it's easy to list players who use very few or no effects. But then again, it's just as easy to list great guitarists who do use a lot of effects: Dave Gilmour, The Edge, Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Tom Morello, Matt Bellamy, Adrian Belew, Steve Stevens, Robert Fripp, Trevor Rabin, Allan Holdsworth, Andy Summers, etc. It's a choice that's all. Horses for courses in many cases.

A lot of the classic "hero" players would have used more effects if they had been available at the time. A good example would be Hendrix, who used everything he could get his hands on and pushed designers like Roger Meyer for more and more ways to warp his sound. In fact the genesis of most of the early effects (and at least their popularity) can be traced to Jimi.

Stoner-Riff

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Who says quantity and quality are mutually exclusive? The OP was about using some of the more multi-function pedals vs. single-purpose models.

Sure, it's easy to list players who use very few or no effects. But then again, it's just as easy to list great guitarists who do use a lot of effects: Dave Gilmour, The Edge, Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Tom Morello (?), Matt Bellamy, Adrian Belew, Steve Stevens, Robert Fripp, Trevor Rabin, Allan Holdsworth, Andy Summers, etc. It's a choice that's all. Horses for courses in many cases.

A lot of the classic "hero" players would have used more effects if they had been available at the time. A good example would be Hendrix, who used everything he could get his hands on and pushed designers like Roger Meyer for more and more ways to warp his sound. In fact the genesis of most of the early effects (and at least their popularity) can be traced to Jimi.

Remember, i am referring to dirt tones only.
Non of the high profile guys, like Steve Vai et all, has more than two dirt tones. Three, if you want to incl. his clean tone.
Imho, (cover bands excl.) muso's that play original music, do not need a multi FX box with 10 diff dirt tones.

Even Jimmy Page (who comes from the same era as Hendrix, R.I.P.) has only one dirt tone - even today. Maybe two, if he kicks in a Tone Bender.

PS : Tom Morello only has 5 pedals, and zero for dirt.

Dunlope Cry Baby, Digitech Whammy, Boss DD-2, DOD EQ, Ibanez Flanger & JCM800 50W for dirt.

PeachyDragon

Well, That I agree with Stoner Riff. If I get a tone I like, I really don't see the point of using different distortion tones on different songs.
It's odd how a guitarist can make a bad distortion tone sound halfway decent because of the way he/she plays though.

Gearhead

Funny to me how the okes in the 'one tone' camp change the gear they use to get their 'one tone' every other week ?