Warren
singemonkey wrote:
It begins...
/wrists
Stoner-Riff
I feel there just might be a Tokai LP in my future . . . maybe as soon as next year !
Keep 'em comming guys !
Much appreciated thus far !
MikeM
Bro to be totally honest, considering your situation it might be beneficial to go Gibson. If you get to skip customs and shipping, you'll be paying the same price for an instrument of equally quality (IMHO - I've played quite a few of these now) but with better resale and some heritage behind the name.
Whoever tells you that the quality of modern Gibsons suck is talking out their arse and is most likely biased. You'll get gems and duds from both brands - which I am saying from experience.
IceCreamMan
i picked up a tokai today ..i am exceedingly happy with it ...but i guess one would be on he first day.
as a luthier i respect said to me ,the japanese make consistently good guitars , the americans make good guitars too , but not consistently so.
if one can get a gbison for the same price ,it would be stupid not do so imho......it must be said
BluJu
I've seen quite few Tokais, they looked great. I only really gave their Tele a good test run. Compared it with a standard USA and it was on par.
As for Gibson LP's I've never really been the biggest fan. Is it possible that we just don't get the finest Gibsons imported to South Africa? Maybe the Yanks keep all the good ones for themselves and send us what is left or do these guitars tend to be fairly consistent? I've always wondered how people can justify the price of a new Gibson (in SA).
As for resale value on a Tokai, I really don't think that it would do too badly. In fact given the price of an equivalent Gibson you are probably more likely to struggle finding a buyer for that. Tokais are quite well known these days so there is certainly a market for them.
MikeM
BluJu wrote:As for resale value on a Tokai, I really don't think that it would do too badly. In fact given the price of an equivalent Gibson you are probably more likely to struggle finding a buyer for that. Tokais are quite well known these days so there is certainly a market for them.
Considering he's not paying for customs and shipping, I'm pretty dam sure he could bring one in, and sell it this side for a profit. If he's buying a Tokai locally, he can knock R1k off the price once he's left the store.
Not to mention he could also pick one up second hand that side and save a massive bundle.
Stoner-Riff
I hear what you guys are saying !
Most of my gear, guitars & pedals, was bought in other countries.
Just makes sense to someone in my position.
Amps on the other hand is not so easy, due to their weight. (and 110V input)
(new toaster style amps excl.)
shaunf
MikeM wrote:
Bro to be totally honest, considering your situation it might be beneficial to go Gibson. If you get to skip customs and shipping, you'll be paying the same price for an instrument of equally quality (IMHO - I've played quite a few of these now) but with better resale and some heritage behind the name.
Whoever tells you that the quality of modern Gibsons suck is talking out their arse and is most likely biased. You'll get gems and duds from both brands - which I am saying from experience.
Played 2 LS98's that were at my local shop a couple of months ago. Really don't see what all the fuss is about. They were nice, but I can't say I'd be trading my "Poor quality, sub-standard" according to some :? LP Studio to get one anytime soon to get one.
aubs1
vic wrote:
ZarK wrote:
The Tokai "Les Pauls" I've tested where significantly better quality and finish than their Gibson counterparts. Being half the price is a bonus. I walked into Marshall's two or three weeks ago with the idea of purchasing a Gibson LP Custom and was shocked and appalled by the poor quality... I think its a cheek and a total ripoff to ask R32k for a guitar with such poor fit and finish. I'm quite disgusted with Gibson as a brand to be honest. I feel that they're getting away with inferior products at premium prices just because of their name. The salesman's only defense was: If you want quality and finish, buy a PRS, if you want to rock out, buy a Gibson LP. (What absolute BS to cover for a product that more and more people admit are sub-standard more often than not... The Tokai's I've tested where on another level altogether... (The Gibson hollow bodies seemed to be better quality than the LP's...)
ZarK could you be more specific and tell us
exactly what the problem/s are with the particular guitar. I really want to know.
Yep, me too!! I own both, 3X Gibsons and 2x Tokais, and am totally happy with both makes ....... From what I gather, your gripe is with the price of the Gibbys, well ...... tough......
Btw. The prices you keep quoting are definitely not what I pay for my stuff, and I buy 99% of my stuff locally.....
vic
Aubs1 wrote:
vic wrote:
ZarK wrote:
The Tokai "Les Pauls" I've tested where significantly better quality and finish than their Gibson counterparts. Being half the price is a bonus. I walked into Marshall's two or three weeks ago with the idea of purchasing a Gibson LP Custom and was shocked and appalled by the poor quality... I think its a cheek and a total ripoff to ask R32k for a guitar with such poor fit and finish. I'm quite disgusted with Gibson as a brand to be honest. I feel that they're getting away with inferior products at premium prices just because of their name. The salesman's only defense was: If you want quality and finish, buy a PRS, if you want to rock out, buy a Gibson LP. (What absolute BS to cover for a product that more and more people admit are sub-standard more often than not... The Tokai's I've tested where on another level altogether... (The Gibson hollow bodies seemed to be better quality than the LP's...)
ZarK could you be more specific and tell us
exactly what the problem/s are with the particular guitar. I really want to know.
Yep, me too!! I own both, 3X Gibsons and 2x Tokais, and am totally happy with both makes ....... From what I gather, your gripe is with the price of the Gibbys, well ...... tough......
Btw. The prices you keep quoting are definitely not what I pay for my stuff, and I buy 99% of my stuff locally.....
Here is the Gibson LP Custom at Marshall Music Cape Town...the only one in stock there. According to a sales consultant (who is a self-confessed Gibson expert :?) this guitar is a prime example of quality in the broadest sense (and all non-believers are invited to a test-drive) ?....just reporting the other side of the story
singemonkey
From experience we know that this Gibson quality debate gets very heated - with people imagining they're being called naive for buying them, which we're not. Several people on the forum, me included, own both and are happy. I would advise people to do there own quality comparisons to see.
Most Gibsons are excellent guitars. Although I think that the final fit and finish of the Gibson USA models is very often unsatisfactory (from my own experience looking at the new ones). This may often mean a sometimes expensive trip to your guitar person to fix up. People on the forum have experienced this also. Almost always you end up with a great guitar afterwards. Tokai's great QC means that this is almost never necessary.
But usually if you can afford a Gibson you can also afford to sort these small issues out. The main reason, I think, for going Tokai, is for the particular specs they make their guitars to. They favour the vintage models and are unconcerned with "progress" in these guitars. For vintage enthusiasts they offer more traditional choices over Gibson at lower price points. For example, Gibson has not made a truly solid back Les Paul in their Gibson USA lineup since 1983. There are custom shop models with solid backs that are excellent of course, but also much more expensive.
Tokai, in contrast makes solid back LPs right from the bottom of their MIJ range. They have other little traditional features - again, right from the bottom of the range - that Gibson USA reserved for their high end models. Whether "thumb-cutters" on the knobs or thin cutaway binding matters to you is, again, a pure question of preference. But Tokai definitely offers more options for the traditionalist (all their SGs are '61 types with deep bevels and neck joint for eg). And that's the real key. Preference.
ZarK
Guys... First off, this is not a brand-war or biased opinion, so put the popcorn away, please. I am open to any brand that comes my way and I judge guitars by the standards that have been forged by owning and playing most of the premium brands myself. Not from window-shopping or online "research". I am only going to explain myself once. My opinion is my opinion and words are not going to change it. Rather try to understand where I'm coming from (if you care) and what I'm getting at. If anyone wants to continue to make snotty remarks based on incorrect assumptions, have your childish fun! I couldn't care less. Remarks about price etc. Seriously... I know quality through owning quality first and foremost.
I've always been a Gibson Les Paul fan -the original bursts and plain tops and especially the Custom in black. I've owned two LP Customs and I loved their tone. (I haven't played many Gibson LP's that I didn't absolutely dig the tone of.) I had two identical early 90's models and even back then they had some serious finish defects. As one example, both of mine had shocking red dots in the white binding around the body and the neck joint and binding in that area was worse than some Epiphone LP's I looked at back then. (The story going around back then was that the Les Pauls that didn't make the grade for the US market got shipped to us -so even back then many felt that their level of fit and finish was questionable. (I got this info from a Bothners employee back then.) After selling them I took a break from Gibson's but still played on a number of them every time I had the chance. I switched to Fenders and I always had Ibby's on the side. More recently (for the last year or so, I started toying with the idea of getting a Gibson LP again -preferably a Custom. As mentioned, I loved their tone and still rate it as one of my favourite tones of them all. So I went to Marshall's because I found out about their Custom and I went to check it out and found to my great disappointment that the overall fit and finish still is lacking when compared to other premium brands that I own/have owned or just know from first hand experience. I mean there are blatant flaws in the finish of this "prime example of quality" -I physically checked the guitar myself and looked at the other LP's as well, maybe I'm just spoiled by the level of quality of the guitars I already own? Maybe I shouldn't have used the R34k PRS Custom 24 they had in store as reference but if that's the prime example of quality, I rest my case...
My point is this: If you want to ask a premium tag, then dammit, at very least put some effort into your fit and finish. PRS, Musicman BFR, higher end Fenders etc. (not to mention Suhr gets it right? In my humble opinion these brands have a massive lead on Gibson LP's with regards to fit and finish and these guitars will cost you between R20k and R34k -same price-range and less!
With all of that said, I'd still go for a Gibson LP over a Tokai LR if at a similar price point. Locally, at this stage, I'd rather go for a MIJ Tokai because I believe their fit and finish to be superior to their Gibson counterparts at present -as much as I prefer the Gibson Logo on the headstock...
So... As a Gibson fan first and foremost, I am disgusted with what is to them an acceptable levels of fit and finish when I compare them with other premium brand offerings at the same price-point. This is my opinion and the day I see Gibson raise the standard of their Les Pauls to match the other premium brands in the same price range, I'll change my opinion in a second. I love their tone, I'm just not happy with their fit and finish -especially for the price.
I WON'T buy a new Gibson Les Paul if they don't drop their prices (which won't happen) or preferably up their standards to similar standards of the other premium brands in the same price-range. I've made peace with the fact that I won't buy one new unless I go to the States where I can choose between 100's to find "the one" (or two). I am already looking out for a 70's example where the finish won't be such an issue for me due to the age and expected wear.
So if my opinion conflicts with yours, please get over it and move on. It really isn't that important. I'm not trying to make anyone feel like a pop for owning a Gibson Les Paul. They're great guitars and when I get hold of an example that I deem to be value/quality-for-money, I'll ad it to the collection in an instant.
ZarK
Aubs1 wrote:
From what I gather, your gripe is with the price of the Gibbys, well ...... tough......
Nice one Aubs...
Next time please rather ask if you're not clear on what someone is actually saying before making such and uneducated statement!
needleshy
Even PRS guitars are flawed, if you look close enough at any guitar you are going to find something wrong..... i have a PRS and i have seen someone elses PRS that has the same defect as mine, but i am a player and i buy a guitar for the way it feels and plays, not looks or finished.... because i can guarantee u that its gonna get scratches on the finish anyway, i am not one of those ppl that hold a guitar high up on a pedastal, keep it locked away and get upset if it gets scratched so i don't worry about small things. All the les pauls i have played have been great and i don't care if they are expensive new, i buy second hand... they are better players than new....IMHO. I have never owned one but have played on many and they are great guitars, i am hoping to get one in my collection sometime soon.... we'll see how things go.
I played a Tokai once and its also a great feeling guitar, i never had a chance to plug it in, but it felt and played rad
vic
ZarK wrote:
Aubs1 wrote:
From what I gather, your gripe is with the price of the Gibbys, well ...... tough......
Nice one Aubs...
Next time please rather ask if you're not clear on what someone is actually saying before making such and uneducated statement!
to quote ZarK....
"My opinion is my opinion and words are not going to change it. Rather try to understand where I'm coming from (if you care) and what I'm getting at"....that's exactly WHY I've asked you to
qualify your issues with the quality of the LP Custom.
"If anyone wants to continue to make snotty remarks based on incorrect assumptions, have your childish fun".
"With all of that said, I'd still go for a Gibson LP over a Tokai LR if at a
similar price point."
.....so the problem IS in the price or am I ALSO misinterpreting on what you're saying...just asking ???
vic
needleshy wrote:
Even PRS guitars are flawed, if you look close enough at any guitar you are going to find something wrong..... i have a PRS and i have seen someone elses PRS that has the same defect as mine, but i am a player and i buy a guitar for the way it feels and plays, not looks or finished.... because i can guarantee u that its gonna get scratches on the finish anyway, i am not one of those ppl that hold a guitar high up on a pedastal, keep it locked away and get upset if it gets scratched so i don't worry about small things. All the les pauls i have played have been great and i don't care if they are expensive new, i buy second hand... they are better players than new....IMHO. I have never owned one but have played on many and they are great guitars, i am hoping to get one in my collection sometime soon.... we'll see how things go.
I played a Tokai once and its also a great feeling guitar, i never had a chance to plug it in, but it felt and played rad
A sober statement indeed.
Even great works of art have flaws....it's part of the
art ?
chris77
I'm a fanboy. I'd buy a piece of monkey dung if it had a Fender logo on it and I could somehow justify paying the asking price and afford it. I bet there's Gibson as well as Tokai owners who feel the same way about Their Brands. No amount of logic or arguments of any nature will change that. Sometimes we just love what we love, period.
So like Singe said, there's no right or wrong side, just personal preference.
vic
chris77 wrote:
I'm a fanboy. I'd buy a piece of monkey dung if it had a Fender logo on it and I could somehow justify paying the asking price and afford it. I bet there's Gibson as well as Tokai owners who feel the same way about Their Brands. No amount of logic or arguments of any nature will change that. Sometimes we just love what we love, period.
So like Singe said, there's no right or wrong side, just personal preference.
fine...as long as no monkey throws his dung on my Gibbo's headstock ?
ZarK
vic wrote:
ZarK wrote:
Aubs1 wrote:
From what I gather, your gripe is with the price of the Gibbys, well ...... tough......
Nice one Aubs...
Next time please rather ask if you're not clear on what someone is actually saying before making such and uneducated statement!
to quote ZarK....
"If anyone wants to continue to make snotty remarks based on incorrect assumptions, have your childish fun".
"With all of that said, I'd still go for a Gibson LP over a Tokai LR if at a
similar price point."
.....so the problem IS in the price or am I ALSO misinterpreting on what you're saying...just asking ???
I started typing another long reply to explain clearly and in kindness as to a child -but subsequently deleted it. This topic is just not important enough for me to keep explaining myself to people who'd rather entertain their own pre-conceived ideas. If you can't make your own logical deductions and figure out my reasoning from the ample material provided in my previous post(s), then so be it. I've wasted enough of my time on this topic.
aubs1
ZarK wrote:
Aubs1 wrote:
From what I gather, your gripe is with the price of the Gibbys, well ...... tough......
Nice one Aubs...
Next time please rather ask if you're not clear on what someone is actually saying before making such and uneducated statement!
I am confused ...... ?
