A question on all these funny chords

deefstes

I'm hoping someone can shed some light on all these cool chords that I always see and some of which I can play but none of which I really understand where and when to use.

I'm referring of course of these diminished, augmented, 13th, flat five etc. chords.

Let me put it this way. By giving the circle of fifths one look, you can immediately spot the chords that would work well in your typical song. What follows is probably the first thing that all guitarists learn. (Disclaimer, what follows is also my lay understanding and probably in some aspects inaccurate or wrong).

1. Take C major for instance. We all know that, together with the subdominant (F) and the dominant (G) that makes a song.
2. You can give the song some extra texture by adding some relative minors, i.e. the submediant (Am), supertonic (Dm) and mediant (Em).
3. You can replace your dominant (G) with a dominant seventh (G7) especially when it leads back to the tonic (C).
4. Occasionaly you can gooi in a secondary dominant. My understanding of secondary dominants is a bit sketchy but how I understand it is that you can "tonicize" any of the above chords and precede it with the seventh of what would have been the dominant of the chord you chose. So, if you choose to slap a secondary dominant before an Dm, you can use A7 (because A would have been the dominant if D was the tonic). Similarly, if you wanted something else before the G, you can use D7. This exercise is essentially what happened to the G (becoming a G7) in point 3 above.

OK, so with this knowledge, I've managed to write a number of songs over the years and figure out other songs that I wanted to play. You will notice though that these 4 general rules (if I can call them that) has no reference to any diminished chords, augmented chords, 13th chords, flat five chords and any other fancy chords that I might not even remember now.

Is there anyone who can explain in simple terms how one can decide where and when to add these chords to a song? I've messed with them in the past and occasionally I'll slap in a random augmented chord. Sometimes it works, most times it doesn't. I'd love to understand how I can use those chords more intelligently.

Oh, and if any of my four basic rules above are inaccurate or incorrect, please feel free to point that out as well.

FruitarGeek

Well, this is a field i am still learning about, but the diminished is good to use when chromatisim is used. For example. Cmaj, C#dim, Dmin, Ebdim, Emin. The jazz classic "I got rhythm" shows this well. Give this a try, it sounds nice. So when you have a chromatic 'chord' that is not in the diatonic scale, give the diminished a try.

augmented, in my experience is best used for chord melodies, and also its a great substitute chord for dominants at time. another thing you can try, when doing the ii V I, try use an augmented dominant as the V. Adds a bit of flavour. The same applies to 13th's it depends what the melody will be, but essentially, you can substiute them all the time as they fall within the chord family, so Eb7, can be substituted with Eb13 if you in the mood, and the song calls for it.

Im sure someone can provide a better answer for this though. Its a good question.

Warren

Whoo boy, big topic!

The way to unlock this understanding is to go right back to how chords are built, and you start with the triads:

A triad is a three note chord. Seventh chords are four note chords, expanding upon the triads.

Triads are built using the idea that you can stack third intervals. These thirds can be major or minor.

A minor third is an interval of 3 semi-tones. A major third is an interval of 4 semi-tones.

Pick a scale, like C major (for simplicity's sake). Semi-tone intervals are T-T-s-T-T-T-s.

Starting with the tonic note (C), stack a major third on it by counting up 4 semi-tones:

C - E

Now stack a minor third on top of the E (counting up 3 semi-tones, we'll get a G)

C - E - G

And those are the notes in a C Major chord.

Another way of writing it would be to use the numeric scale intervals:

1 - 3 - 5

If your scale is C D E F G A B, it's easy to snatch notes 1, 3 and 5 to arrive at your major triad.

So we stacked a major third and a minor third. What happens if we use different combos?

The only possible combos with a triad are:

Major 3rd + Minor 3rd : Major Triad
Minor 3rd + Major 3rd : Minor Triad
Major 3rd + Major 3rd : Augmented Triad
Minor 3rd + Minor 3rd : Diminished Triad

So, using C, we'd could use the following formulas on our scale:

1 - 3 - 5 : Major
1 - b3 - 5 : Minor
1 - 3 - #5 : Augmented
1 - b3 - b5 : Dimished

Or

C - E - G
C - Eb - G
C - E - G#
C - Eb - Gb

So that explains the Augmented and Dimished chords, although admittedly doesn't say how to use them, which I'll get to next. Does that make sense so far? If not I might need to leave the explaining to the pro's. ?

deefstes

Warren wrote:So that explains the Augmented and Dimished chords, although admittedly doesn't say how to use them, which I'll get to next. Does that make sense so far? If not I might need to leave the explaining to the pro's. ?

So far so good.
Eagerly awaiting episode II ?

arjunmenon

Great topic deef and good responses from FG and Warren. If i may add regarding the usage...
Let's say your in the key of C major. Your chords are C major, Dm, Em, F major, G major, A minor, B dim. Now to use 7ths, 9ths,11ths and 13ths...
C major 7, Dm7, Em7, F major 7, G7, Am7, B dim7.
Here's the rub, depending on the progression you're playing, you can substitute majors with sus, sus4 or sus add9 chords and minors with m7, m add9 etc. IMO the key is to understand the tonalities of these chords so you can use them when you please. I don't think there's a thing as appropriateness, it's all down to taste.

[deleted]

I often see these chords arise through a melodic line, or a few melodic lines. As the melodies resolve or create suspense you create different variations of the chords.

Warren

deefstes wrote:
So far so good.
Eagerly awaiting episode II ?

OK incoming, might take me a while (dinner and stuffs).

Warren

OK, so I tried to write some more in this regard but it's just not coming across the way I'd like, it keeps sounding too complicated and boring, whereas when I'm sitting and going through it with the instrument it's actually fun and more understandable. ☹

I'm thinking a video would work better...oh dear. Maybe I can try something this weekend and send it to the teacher-types to make sure I'm not talking crap. ?

deefstes

Warren wrote: OK, so I tried to write some more in this regard but it's just not coming across the way I'd like, it keeps sounding too complicated and boring, whereas when I'm sitting and going through it with the instrument it's actually fun and more understandable. ☹

I'm thinking a video would work better...oh dear. Maybe I can try something this weekend and send it to the teacher-types to make sure I'm not talking crap. ?

How awesome would that be! Even if you talk crap, I don't mind. As long as it helps me to be able to incorporate more interesting chords into my songs than those which fall within my four basic rules above (which are probably also crap anyway).

UncleGoatLips

Just found this topic now, LOADS of errors/discrepancies....

Arjun Menon wrote: Great topic deef and good responses from FG and Warren. If i may add regarding the usage...
Let's say your in the key of C major. Your chords are C major, Dm, Em, F major, G major, A minor, B dim. Now to use 7ths, 9ths,11ths and 13ths...
C major 7, Dm7, Em7, F major 7, G7, Am7, B dim7.
Here's the rub, depending on the progression you're playing, you can substitute majors with sus, sus4 or sus add9 chords and minors with m7, m add9 etc. IMO the key is to understand the tonalities of these chords so you can use them when you please. I don't think there's a thing as appropriateness, it's all down to taste.

Uhm no...

Firstly you get:

CMaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7 and Bmin7flat5 not Bdim7...

While it's true that the triads are: Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj, Amin and Bdim there is a huge difference between Dim7 and Min7 Flat 5.

Firstly, the formula for any major scale is:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Taking the 1, 3 and 5 makes the root chord (C major because we've been working in C major) all of this the previous posters mentioned.

Now...

These are the triads (3 note chords) you find in any diatonic scale:

1 3 5 = Major
1 b3 5 = Minor
1 b3 b5 = Diminished

The formula's for the chords you find when using four notes are:

1 3 5 7 = Major 7 (Chord's I and IV)
1 b3 5 b7 = Minor 7 (Chords ii, iii and iv)
1 3 5 b7 = Dominant 7 (Chord V)
1 b3 b5 b7 = Minor7 flat 5 (Chord vii)

See, no dim7, a Diminished 7 = 1 b3 b5 bb7 (double flat 7)

The reason is that a minor 7 flat 5 chord is exactly what it says, it's a minor 7 chord with a flat 5, or, a diminished chord with an added b7.

Cmin7b5 would be: C, Eb, Gb, Bb
C dim 7 would be: C, Eb, Gb and.. B double flat....

YES, B DOUBLE FLAT IS THE SAME NOTE AS A!!

The reason is that B is the 7'th note in the Cmajor scale, so the 7 in Diminished 7 has to be some kind of B and A is the 6th note so even though it's the same note you have to refer to it as the B double flat 7.

Arjun Menon wrote: Here's the rub, depending on the progression you're playing, you can substitute majors with sus, sus4 or sus add9 chords and minors with m7, m add9 etc. IMO the key is to understand the tonalities of these chords so you can use them when you please. I don't think there's a thing as appropriateness, it's all down to taste.

Just as long as you know, these are diatonic and would work but you are still "suggesting" the actual chords of the diatonic scale.

deefstes wrote:
4. Occasionaly you can gooi in a secondary dominant. My understanding of secondary dominants is a bit sketchy but how I understand it is that you can "tonicize" any of the above chords and precede it with the seventh of what would have been the dominant of the chord you chose. So, if you choose to slap a secondary dominant before an Dm, you can use A7 (because A would have been the dominant if D was the tonic). Similarly, if you wanted something else before the G, you can use D7. This exercise is essentially what happened to the G (becoming a G7) in point 3 above.

Your understanding is indeed a "bit sketchy" ?

I think you mean in this sense that you can resolve any chord from the V chord of that chord? Which isn't technically true but you could if you wanted to since a V-I resolution is the most perfect resolution to our ears.

In my opinion you should first get a really good grip on all diatonic harmony before moving on to chord(tritone) substitutions.

Keira-WitherKay

@ deeftes.........if you want to understand how to use more expansive and harmonically interesting chords ..... just study up on chord substitution ............ there are a list of rules one can apply ( about 11 or so ) .......and it will show you how to substitute more harmonically interesting chords for any songs chord structure ........

a very simple example is take an ending to a song in key of A ( just last 2 bars)
example 1
timing in 4/4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
original version / A (I chord) D (IV chord) / A (I chord) /

1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
the altered ending / A D Dm7 / A A7 /

example 2
or a simple substitution of a maj 7 chord for the I chord diminished chord in place of a VI chord in a simple chord sequence in key of A and substitute an augmented for the V chord

timing in 4/4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
original sequence / A (I chord) F#m7 (VI chord) / Bm7 (II chord) E7 (V chord) /
altered sequence / Amaj7 F#dim / Bm7 E+ (+ means aug) /

just in case you not sure below is how to play the voicing for the augmented E chord

how to play Eaug (E+) formula I III #V
string fret note explanation
E do not play
A 7th fret E note ..... (I) root
D 6th fret Ab (III)
G 5th fret C (#V)
B 5th fret E (I) root octave up
E do not play

it's effective even using very simple substitutions as above and of course it gets way more complex especially in jazz where one can alter almost the entire chord structure and still have the same melody playing above it ..but chord substitution even in it's simplest of simplest forms as shown above are very useful and can sweeten songs

hope this helps.........

btw some absolutely selfless promotion , but in august i will have finished my 9 month run of shows at sun city and will be teaching fulltime again in pta and jhb areas if you want a full lesson on this........ i'd gladly offer you that for free simply cos it's good to see people interested to look beyond the simple progressions

deefstes

Thanks you guys, I've already learned loads in this thread and am eager to try to implement some of it. Perhaps I'd like to touch on a few specific comments:

Arjun Menon wrote: Let's say your in the key of C major. Your chords are C major, Dm, Em, F major, G major, A minor, B dim.

See already, I wasn't aware that Bdim fits so nicely into this whole scheme. For the most part I simply ignored the VII chord, simply because I didn't really know how to use it. Could someone perhaps illustrate with a simple chord progression where the VIIdim chord would fit nicely?

Arjun Menon wrote: Now to use 7ths, 9ths,11ths and 13ths...
C major 7, Dm7, Em7, F major 7, G7, Am7, B dim7 (actually Bmin7b5 as UncleGoatLips pointed out)

Is it just a matter of replacing any random chord with its 7th, 9th, 11th or 13th and develop a feel for which work better or are there more intelligent ways to go about it? 7ths for instance I mostly just use as V7 - I (like G7 resolving to C or D7 resolving to G). Are there, similarly, specific places where 9ths, 11ths or 13ths usually work better?

UncleGoatLips wrote:In my opinion you should first get a really good grip on all diatonic harmony before moving on to chord(tritone) substitutions.

Actually, you said a lot before that which I found most interesting. I read it through a few times and I think I understand what you said. This Bmin7b5 that you explained, it sounds like what I know as a B half diminished. Is that the same thing or is there some subtle difference between those as well?

As for this final comment, could you point me to any starting point to getting a good grip on diatonic harmony? I know what the word "diatonic" means and I know what the word "harmony" means but strung together they suddenly sound all the more complicated. ?

Keira WitherKay wrote: @ deeftes.........if you want to understand how to use more expansive and harmonically interesting chords ..... just study up on chord substitution ............ there are a list of rules one can apply ( about 11 or so ) .......and it will show you how to substitute more harmonically interesting chords for any songs chord structure ........

That sounds like exactly the kind of rules I was looking for. I'll get googling. I played around with your two examples and I like it. Simple, yet effective. Thanks.

[deleted]

I often see these chords arise through a melodic line, or a few melodic lines. As the melodies resolve or create suspense you create different variations of the chords.

BTW this is called "four part harmony". If you listen to each "voice" of the chord and pay attention to whether it moves to the next note in a step, hop or jump, or stays in the same place, you can listen for where you can add variations that will make sense to your ear.

UncleGoatLips

Deefstes: Absolutely right, half diminished is another name for min7b5.

Also, lets call it diatonic theory to keep it simple ?

Chord substitution and modal interchange etc. is where you start breaking away from the diatonic so that's why I said understanding diatonic theory thoroughly first is really important (you have to understand the rules before you can break them) and not as hard as you think, I would suggest finding someone in person to explain everything to you in more detail, so go to Keira or someone in your area for a few lessons. These concepts are really tough to explain if I cant write it out, notate it, visually and aurally show examples and so on but again, it's pretty simple once everything falls into place.

arjunmenon

Thanks UGLips for correcting my sketchy memory.
It is indeed min7b5 and not dim7 as i originally mentioned.

Cheers :goodtimes: