D-Man
The most important part of this post is at the end so if you don't feel like wasting time reading a random story, feel free to skip to the last few sentences. ? ? ?
So a couple of days ago I'm in the garage jamming some songs out with my fellow guitarist and bassist when this man walks up to the gate handing me a brown envelope. Strangely my friend liked to believe it was a recording contract... NOOB! So we open it up and it's titled: "NOTICE TO CEASE NOISE NUISANCE" reading the find print at the bottom it states that if this "noise nuisance" doesn't stop, we could be imprisoned for a maximum of 2 years or fined no more than R20000 or both (When I say "we" I mean my parents because they own the place).
I didn't know this was possible. When we had our first full on jam session with a drummer 3 weeks prior to this, an old man came to us and asked us to quiet down a bit. Despite the fact that the old man lives three houses down the road, we decided to give it a break for about 2 hours before jamming a little bit more. A week later we had another practice session scheduled and this time I insisted on some drum mutes. We took the drum mutes off the kick, snare and cymbals to maintain our sound quality so eventually they were pretty redundant. In both of these instances we only turned our two guitar amps and one bass amp loud enough to be heard over the drums.
I read up a bit on the regulations and even though there is a specific decibel limit on some of the offences, there is no limit on a noise nuisance. Now the notice doesn't exactly bother me very much as we have asked many friends and colleagues from the law enforcement and legal sectors about the situation. They and some other information we gathered led us to believe that the old man pulled some strings and took some shortcuts in the process of issuing the complaint etc. However, this might become a regular thing and I do want to be a considerate neighbor so I want to do whatever I can to be less of a nuisance. My immediate neighbors have never said a thing. This is probably because we never practice earlier than 10am or later than 4pm and most people are at work during these times. So our time slot is perfect if you ask me but I need some advice on soundproofing the garage a little bit. It's a double garage, one side of which is a gym area and the other is where we jam, however there's usually a car parked in there. There is one really tiny window to one side of the garage and the doors are made of what seems to be thin corrugated iron. One of the doors is also missing it's rubber seal at the bottom. These are the two biggest 'sonic gaps' if you ask me. Any ideas on how I could improve the soundproofing properties of the garage for a very low cost so as to keep the neighbors happy when the drums are blaring?
MIKA-the-better-one
Yeh I bet the old man just wrote it up on his typewriter.... or printing press....
You are fully in your right to jam, especially in those hours you mentioned.
Funny enough here in the USA in the suburbs people are not stressed about it at all. This kid down the road drums till about 10pm with no issues the neihbours respect him, and know in return he will respect his privilage.
Most likely you just have a old guy who has nothing better to do with his time. A few nights befroe I sold my bassman amp, I cranked it up late at night and took it outside.. gave about 20 seconds of feedback in the neihbourhood.... and pakced it away for good... I got no complaints ☹
Anyway soundproofing I have no idea, I just like to complain.
Zapruder
Hey D-Man
The old fashion, cheap way is to glue egg boxes onto the walls. It has the added benefit of a cheap high for a couple of weeks when you're in the room, ha ha.
If you wanna go a step further, then also get some lengths of cheap wood and frame the room with them - like a picture frame - at the ceiling and the corners of each wall. You want the wood to be about 3 inches thick. Then get hold of some old carpeting and nail it onto the frame, so that there is a 3 inch gap between the carpet and the walls. The sound gets deadened by the carpet and trapped in the space between the carpet and the wall.
Used that combination with an old band of mine that rehearsed in the guitarist's garage opposite a school and you couldn't hear anything unless you got to within a few metres of the garage.
Averatu
From experience with my clients I can assure you that noise complaints that go thru can net fines of up to R30k. If you wanna use egg trays, be my guest, but its about the worst advise and a total waste of time. Simple physics dictates paper cant stop sound waves, especially bass frequencies. The biggest problem would be bass frequencies, it normally requires acoustic treatment and insulation.
FruitarGeek
build a room within your garage, that way you will have a big enough air gap for the bass freq to disipate ?
AlanRatcliffe
Noise proofing is not an easy one on a tight budget. It's not something you can do on a tight budget - you'd basically have to make sure the room seals airtight, fit a ceiling, change any doors to solid ones and block up windows. Plus as it's airtight, so you have to install an aircon so you can breathe.
Eggboxes look a little like acoustic foam, but don't work like it - they are worse than useless as they create a fire hazard. Blankets, carpet and acoustic foam make the room sound better, but do almost nothing to stop sound getting in or out and operate more on midrange and high frequencies than low (which tend to be the troublesome ones for neighbours).
The best thing you can do is go to all your neighbours and ask them if they mind if you practice occasionally and if there are any times/days that would suit them better. Tell them you'll only make a noise at these times and that you will try keep it down as much as possible. Not only will this create goodwill, but if one neighbour starts complaining, you can point out that none of the others do and they won't have much of a case (especially if they are further away than the neighbours who do mind).
Otherwise, you'll have to start looking into renting a practice room somewhere...
vic
Alan Ratcliffe wrote
Noise proofing is not an easy one on a tight budget. It's not something you can do on a tight budget - you'd basically have to make sure the room seals airtight, fit a ceiling, change any doors to solid ones and block up windows. Plus as it's airtight, so you have to install an aircon so you can breathe.
Eggboxes look a little like acoustic foam, but don't work like it - they are worse than useless as they create a fire hazard. Blankets, carpet and acoustic foam make the room sound better, but do almost nothing to stop sound getting in or out and operate more on midrange and high frequencies than low (which tend to be the troublesome ones for neighbours).
The best thing you can do is go to all your neighbours and ask them if they mind if you practice occasionally and if there are any times/days that would suit them better. Tell them you'll only make a noise at these times and that you will try keep it down as much as possible. Not only will this create goodwill, but if one neighbour starts complaining, you can point out that none of the others do and they won't have much of a case (especially if they are further away than the neighbours who do mind).
Otherwise, you'll have to start looking into renting a practice room somewhere...
Excellent advice from Alan.....get buy-in from all the neighbours, including the "old man". "Disturbing the Peace" is always viewed in a serious light by authorities... no matter what time of day or night.
D-Man
Yeah, There's always that question of "what if this turns out ugly". The best thing to do will be to make all the neighbours aware of these practices and still try to get a little bit of soundproofing for the long run. The only issue is that the days we practice on will vary greatly especially during school terms and such. But I'm sure telling them when usual practice will be and then stating that there might be some exceptions wouldn't bother them too much.
Riaan-Combrink
+1 to what Alan, D-man and Vic said. I lived through a similar experience some years back - and literally sold and moved elsewhere. I had aneighbour who had a bee in her bonnet and nothing I could do could dissuade her from complaining to police, ward councillor etc. I'm in the legal field myself, and knew I was within my rights, but the general yapping, notes in the post box, etc became so irritating that we made the move to an area we wanted to go sooner than anticipated!
So I think whatever sound treatment you'd be able to do on a budget is unlikely to make this guy stop complaining. The solution here is a social and not technical one.
D-Man
Very true, i'm led to believe that this man's wife is in the medical field, this is why I think he used some of his connections to issue the notice. The man himself seems to be at home 24/7 and he's currently selling bags of wood from his front lawn. These bags of wood took a while to 'produce' can I say. I'd say the constant chainsawing that he made the whole neighbourhood listen to over weekends was far more irritating than the music we make on occasional Fridays when everyone is at work. He's also complained about someone in the road using a leaf blower!!! Now I don't want to make enemies but it seems like this man is just stubborn and dead set in his ways. I'm pretty sure a bit of money invested in soundproofing would not only fool the man into thinking we've stopped but could also mean more possibilities for the band as far as practice facility and opportunity are concerned... I'm sure soundproofing a garage would also turn out to be cheaper than hiring a rehearsal space every now and then.
Keira-WitherKay
again like all the posts say ....+1 to what alan and others say about negotiating practise times........... and of course then stick to em religeously ...... cos that extra 30 min over the stipulated time is nothing for you but for someone wanting peace and quiet it would be the deal breaker
and lastly don't take this lightly , cos i have seen restuarants with live music .which is prob softer than your jam's get closed down (well forced to stop music which led them to move premises ) by just one complainant ...... who persisted and took it through the process......
actually if the "negotiating does not end well" i woud say just hire a rehearsal room ....... they ussually cheap and some even have gear supplied ...... as in basic pa's and kits and if you split it between the members it's cheap ( i think last time i heard even marshall music in woodmead offered rehearsal space for R90 an hour or some low rate )
well i must say i live at the moment in sun city in a complex of staff flats ....and when someone turns up the hi fi too much ........ even as a muso it gets to me..... and all i hear in my flat is sub bass.......that when i complain ...so yes take it seriously ....... loud music can be offensive to many
Ray
Look, you say that you dont want to make enemies. Seems like you may have one. So, you can buckle down to this guy's likes and dislikes or you can give him an incentive to not complain.
chris77
What makes me sad about this thread is that I just know, I know, that if I'm fortunate enough to retire in 30 odd years or so, that old man shaking his cane at everybody that disturbs his peace and quiet will be me. ☹
FruitarGeek
Oh i have a neighbour likes this too. Also threatened me with legal action if I did not stop. Although my band room jam days are over now that I am at varsity. Have found other places to make noise ?
But D-man, with all due respect, you possibly could not afford proper sound proofing, its expensive as hell, at the most, as everyone else has added here you can 'treat' your garage with carpets and egg boxes to shape the sound, but it certainly wont stop it. Is there no where else in the house you can have the rehearsals, like in your room, which has more house around it to stop the sound! Also Keira, R90 an hour for rehearsal space is really expensive, coming from a student, that is not an 'easy option out' hahahaha, but the studio's here in cape town are like R50/h, but we only use it once in a blue moon.
Can't you also move the practices to the other muso's houses, like the drummer
vic
D-Man wrote
Very true, i'm led to believe that this man's wife is in the medical field, this is why I think he used some of his connections to issue the notice. The man himself seems to be at home 24/7 and he's currently selling bags of wood from his front lawn. These bags of wood took a while to 'produce' can I say. I'd say the constant chainsawing that he made the whole neighbourhood listen to over weekends was far more irritating than the music we make on occasional Fridays when everyone is at work. He's also complained about someone in the road using a leaf blower!!! Now I don't want to make enemies but it seems like this man is just stubborn and dead set in his ways. I'm pretty sure a bit of money invested in soundproofing would not only fool the man into thinking we've stopped but could also mean more possibilities for the band as far as practice facility and opportunity are concerned... I'm sure soundproofing a garage would also turn out to be cheaper than hiring a rehearsal space every now and then.
Against all municipal regulations...serious...make a deal with him. Suggest to him he gives you a bag of wood each weekend and he accepts the band practice..or you'll report him to the authorities ?
Jack-Flash-Jr
vic wrote
D-Man wrote
Very true, i'm led to believe that this man's wife is in the medical field, this is why I think he used some of his connections to issue the notice. The man himself seems to be at home 24/7 and he's currently selling bags of wood from his front lawn. These bags of wood took a while to 'produce' can I say. I'd say the constant chainsawing that he made the whole neighbourhood listen to over weekends was far more irritating than the music we make on occasional Fridays when everyone is at work. He's also complained about someone in the road using a leaf blower!!! Now I don't want to make enemies but it seems like this man is just stubborn and dead set in his ways. I'm pretty sure a bit of money invested in soundproofing would not only fool the man into thinking we've stopped but could also mean more possibilities for the band as far as practice facility and opportunity are concerned... I'm sure soundproofing a garage would also turn out to be cheaper than hiring a rehearsal space every now and then.
Against all municipal regulations...serious...make a deal with him. Suggest to him he gives you a bag of wood each weekend and he accepts the band practice..or you'll report him to the authorities ?
Just be careful:
(Noise at the end)
D-Man
Keira WitherKay wrote
actually if the "negotiating does not end well" i woud say just hire a rehearsal room ....... they ussually cheap and some even have gear supplied ...... as in basic pa's and kits and if you split it between the members it's cheap ( i think last time i heard even marshall music in woodmead offered rehearsal space for R90 an hour or some low rate )
FruitarGeek wrote
Can't you also move the practices to the other muso's houses, like the drummer
Both of these options have large issues. Practicing 4 to 6 hours a regular week with 4 weeks in a month at R50/h means almost R1000 a month. For 16 year olds, that's an issue. Keeping the practices at my house also has it's reasons. The first and biggest being transport, it's easy for everyone to get here and not so easy for all of us to go somewhere else. And secondly, we have quite a bit of space here and no-one within our premises that could be bothered, so an invasion of wannabe musos and their supposed teenage fans isn't a huge issue. It's just more comfortable this way.
FruitarGeek wrote
But D-man, with all due respect, you possibly could not afford proper sound proofing, its expensive as hell, at the most, as everyone else has added here you can 'treat' your garage with carpets and egg boxes to shape the sound, but it certainly wont stop it.
Well I've done a bit of research on soundproofing and using a pretty thorough and popular method of 50mm stud walls forming a room inside a room with walls made of glasswool sandwiched between two sheets of rhinoboard leads to an estimated cost of R3000. Renting a rehearsal space for 3 months would be equivalent to that sort of treatment once off forever. It might not be up to professional studio spec but from what I've read, and understand about the science behind it all, it should make a considerable difference and show the neighbours I'm not completely inconsiderate.
At the end of the day, I'm prepared to put in as much time, work as it takes and a reasonable sum of money to be able to continue making music in the comfort of my own home or garage for that matter.
FruitarGeek wrote
Is there no where else in the house you can have the rehearsals, like in your room, which has more house around it to stop the sound!
The garage is the only space with, well, space. With the exception of the living areas and my brother's bedroom. For obvious reasons though, those aren't valid spaces.
singemonkey
Negotiating with him will be tough. He could easily view you as rowdy, disrespectful kids and thus will have his back up from the get-go. If you want to get him to agree to some mutually agreeable times, you might have to let him vent at you a while, stay calm, until he's ready to accept that it was actually cool of you to come to speak to him. I'll guarantee that any suggestion that you have the right to play when ever you want will end the negotiation immediately.
Hear him out. Let him know that you respect the fact that he wants peace and quiet. Let him know what you're trying to achieve with the band and the reasons why your house is the only available option and then ask him to suggest times you could play that would suit him.
Jack knows how this stuff works better than I, but this will be a start. Once you're negotiating times, you're on the same page and can come to some sort of arrangement. If you don't take his complaints seriously, he'll sniff it in an instant and won't be interested - knowing that he can shut you down any time he likes. If he thinks you're a "decent kid," he might feel compelled to give a little ground.
D-Man
As much as that sounds like one of the last things I would want to do purely because of this man's initial attitude, I might work... It might be the best solution yet.
MikeM
Yeaaa.. It's actually a very difficult thing to prove. There was a big discussion on this a little while ago somewhere on the forum, but according to what I have studied..
You need to be 5dB over the ambient volume for 30 minutes? So it's a very difficult thing to prove. I suppose your biggest worry will be "disturbing the peace", but technically it's a real mission to prove you're either being too loud, or are still within your rights.
I think maybe head his way with a cake or bottle of whiskey and ask very nicely if you guys can come to some sort of agreement will be easiest ?
