Upright Piano

kayDUB

Hi All

I'd like to get an upright piano for my house in the future. This is something I don't know very much about...
I'm not a piano player at all so I'm not looking for something top notch, it must just be decent - quality and price wise.
What is a good brand and what should I expect to pay - second hand of course ? ?
I see there are always quite a few for sale on gumtree, what are things that I should check out when looking at them?

Appreciated.

Manfred-Klose

There is a place in bellville in voortrekker road, Piano house, they sell second hand pianos.

if it sounds and play good then its good ?

domhatch

very good advice there. rather than buying from someone you don't know, buy from a second-hand dealer/restorer, etc. at least you know they've done some work on getting the piano up to some standard. it would be interesting to know what you're getting the piano for.

as far as brands go, there are a number of really good ones to look for. you have biggies like yamaha, but there are simply whacks. two ways to go about it - trawl the local music shops to see what brands they're selling, or find yon second-hand dealer person, and see how many different ones they have and research each on the net. the brand is not really important, however, the quality of the instrument is. (i wonder where i've heard that before...)

you also need to consider where you're going to place it. it can't go up against an outside wall - well, it can, but you run the risk of damp, and the rapid temp changes will send it out of tune far faster and more often. an inside wall is vastly preferable.

another thing to look at might be a second-hand clavinova/other electronic piano. i have one and am incredibly impressed with the touch and sound. sure, it's not a piano, but if you're not - like i'm not - a pianist, does it matter that much? plus they never need tuning and often come with a convenient line out jack, and a headphone jack too... so put that thought in your head while you're looking.

good luck
dh

EDIT: i ought to point out that the clavinova i bought new, not second-hand. as with any voetstoots (sp?) purchase, do some homework...

DonovanB

I got hold of a very old (1925) piano for next to nothing.

Good deal I thought until I was told it needs refelting on all 88 hammers and dampers.
R5k added instantly to the price. I still haven't done it. ☹

kayDUB

Manfred Klose wrote: There is a place in bellville in voortrekker road, Piano house, they sell second hand pianos.

if it sounds and play good then its good ?

Will check it out, thanks Manfred.

domhatch wrote: very good advice there. rather than buying from someone you don't know, buy from a second-hand dealer/restorer, etc. at least you know they've done some work on getting the piano up to some standard. it would be interesting to know what you're getting the piano for.

as far as brands go, there are a number of really good ones to look for. you have biggies like yamaha, but there are simply whacks. two ways to go about it - trawl the local music shops to see what brands they're selling, or find yon second-hand dealer person, and see how many different ones they have and research each on the net. the brand is not really important, however, the quality of the instrument is. (i wonder where i've heard that before...)

you also need to consider where you're going to place it. it can't go up against an outside wall - well, it can, but you run the risk of damp, and the rapid temp changes will send it out of tune far faster and more often. an inside wall is vastly preferable.

another thing to look at might be a second-hand clavinova/other electronic piano. i have one and am incredibly impressed with the touch and sound. sure, it's not a piano, but if you're not - like i'm not - a pianist, does it matter that much? plus they never need tuning and often come with a convenient line out jack, and a headphone jack too... so put that thought in your head while you're looking.

good luck
dh

EDIT: i ought to point out that the clavinova i bought new, not second-hand. as with any voetstoots (sp?) purchase, do some homework...

Thanks Dom, I'd like to learn more piano, I think it will help with theory and I just like the vibe ? I think I'll enjoy having another instrument to be creative with!
Just cos I'm not a piano player now doesn't mean it'll always be that way ?
Didn't think of the placement issue, but luckily I'm planning on an inside wall. I have thought about the electric piano route, but I must say again I like the vibe of a piano, makes me feel all creative ? How often do you need to tune a piano? I thought it was pretty much only if you moved it?
Hmmm a headphone out is a good point, useful while wife is sleeping!

Donovan Banks wrote: I got hold of a very old (1925) piano for next to nothing.

Good deal I thought until I was told it needs refelting on all 88 hammers and dampers.
R5k added instantly to the price. I still haven't done it. ☹

Thanks Don, I'll make sure I get it checked out first!

Wizard

Donovan Banks wrote: I got hold of a very old (1925) piano for next to nothing.
Good deal I thought until I was told it needs refelting on all 88 hammers and dampers.
R5k added instantly to the price. I still haven't done it. ☹

Every note on a piano is effectively a little musical instrument; which is very manually intensive to repair.
Can be very expensive to repair all of the hammers and dampers.
I'd buy 2nd hand from someone who is reputable and trustworthy.

I can recommend Ian Burgess-Simpson.
He may not tell you what you'd like, but he'll tell you the truth.

Svengali

1. Older is not always better. Piano's need frequent servicing or their condition will deteriorate fast. 11 moving parts between key and string means lots of potential wear.

2. German or English manufacturers are not automatically superior to oriental brands. However, the connoiseur's choice still tend to lie among the Steinway/Bosendorfer/Bechstein camp. Steinway is American but the company originated in Germany. A split company is Grotrian Steinweg (Steinway=Steinweg) is still active in Germany and these piano's are GREAT (I know - I own one). Japanese brands such as Yamaha are often prefered by pop artists for the very reason that they don't offer the complex sonorities that make Steinway the prefered choice of Classical pianists; they (Yamaha's) are brighter, boomier sounding, if you will. This is an over simplification, but think of the two as Rolls and BMW. You're not going to go for the first one if speed is what you're after...

3. Size does count. Bigger, usually, means better. One has to bear in mind though, the area where the instrument will be kept. A concert grand is a bit of an overkill for a private living room.

4. Expect to pay between R10 000 and R20 000 for an average to slightly above avarage instrument on the second hand market, however; many sellers over charge or under charge. Sometimes by as much as tens of thousands. So, bargains are to be had... Yamahas (new) go for around R30 000 upwards. My Grotrian (about 50years old [careful when looking at anything older than that] and got it 2nd hand for R25 000) sounds better than any new Yamaha out there.

5. Yamaha and Otto Bach (German) are very common in SA and they've built up a rep among the Joe and Jane on the steet who's only slightly less than ignorant as being THE BEST. Even if this is not quite true, it is great instruments compared to Suzuki or Selmer or whatever other Cash Crusader equivalent is being pushed in the shops. New piano for under R20 000? I don't think so... Another good oriental brand is Kawai (comparable to Yamaha and better IMO).

6. Check for cracks in sound board, any sign of water damage and parts of action that evidently will need replacement such as felt on hammers or dampers and rusty strings. Tuning pegs on better piano's appear to fit into metal frame, albeit with visable wooden border around peg rather than simply into large exposed wooden frame. This indicates a metal frame which extends over a larger area of the instrument and means a more valuable piano in terms of manufacturing costs.

7. Play each succesive note and listen for any buzzes which may indicate something like worn out centre pin fixtures. A common problem which bassicaly means that the hammer lever aquires a greater range of motion than what is required. Check that hammers move in a straight line as you play the notes.

That's all I can think of now.

domhatch

Svengali wrote: 1. Older is not always better. Piano's need frequent servicing or their condition will deteriorate fast. 11 moving parts between key and string means lots of potential wear.

2. German or English manufacturers are not automatically superior to oriental brands. However, the connoiseur's choice still tend to lie among the Steinway/Bosendorfer/Bechstein camp. Steinway is American but the company originated in Germany. A split company is Grotrian Steinweg (Steinway=Steinweg) is still active in Germany and these piano's are GREAT (I know - I own one). Japanese brands such as Yamaha are often prefered by pop artists for the very reason that they don't offer the complex sonorities that make Steinway the prefered choice of Classical pianists; they (Yamaha's) are brighter, boomier sounding, if you will. This is an over simplification, but think of the two as Rolls and BMW. You're not going to go for the first one if speed is what you're after...

3. Size does count. Bigger, usually, means better. One has to bear in mind though, the area where the instrument will be kept. A concert grand is a bit of an overkill for a private living room.

4. Expect to pay between R10 000 and R20 000 for an average to slightly above avarage instrument on the second hand market, however; many sellers over charge or under charge. Sometimes by as much as tens of thousands. So, bargains are to be had... Yamahas (new) go for around R30 000 upwards. My Grotrian (about 50years old [careful when looking at anything older than that] and got it 2nd hand for R25 000) sounds better than any new Yamaha out there.

5. Yamaha and Otto Bach (German) are very common in SA and they've built up a rep among the Joe and Jane on the steet who's only slightly less than ignorant as being THE BEST. Even if this is not quite true, it is great instruments compared to Suzuki or Selmer or whatever other Cash Crusader equivalent is being pushed in the shops. New piano for under R20 000? I don't think so... Another good oriental brand is Kawai (comparable to Yamaha and better IMO).

6. Check for cracks in sound board, any sign of water damage and parts of action that evidently will need replacement such as felt on hammers or dampers and rusty strings. Tuning pegs on better piano's appear to fit into metal frame, albeit with visable wooden border around peg rather than simply into large exposed wooden frame. This indicates a metal frame which extends over a larger area of the instrument and means a more valuable piano in terms of manufacturing costs.

7. Play each succesive note and listen for any buzzes which may indicate something like worn out centre pin fixtures. A common problem which bassicaly means that the hammer lever aquires a greater range of motion than what is required. Check that hammers move in a straight line as you play the notes.

That's all I can think of now.

that's ALL you can think of now? that's more than i could think of in a lifetime. i'd sure like to have you on my side if i had to go piano shopping...

one thing i'd like to stress is that there is definitely a misconception (and i come across relatively frequently) that you can install your piano and pretty much leave it and it'll stay in tune and playable forever where it stands. pity. so, kaydub, make sure you plan - and budget - for regular servicing as svengali mentioned.

good luck
dh

DonovanB

I'm always trying to find the positives out of a bad situation. When I saw the issues with mine I thought I could make use of the opportunity and learn to tune and repair pianos.

thanks to my excellent procrastination skills I've done nothing about it. pity cos it really is a beaut.

arjunmenon

Svengali wrote: 5. Yamaha and Otto Bach (German) are very common in SA and they've built up a rep among the Joe and Jane on the steet who's only slightly less than ignorant as being THE BEST. Even if this is not quite true, it is great instruments compared to Suzuki or Selmer or whatever other Cash Crusader equivalent is being pushed in the shops. New piano for under R20 000? I don't think so... Another good oriental brand is Kawai (comparable to Yamaha and better IMO).

+1. You could also consider the Designed by Steinway Boston & Essex brands.
Steinway & Sons is still a German company (Hamburg based IINM). Their HO moved to the US (NYC and name anglicised to Steinway from Steinweg) in the late 1800s due to some political reasons and then back to Germany between the 2 wars. Biggest difference between the American and German Steinway's is the action.

kayDUB

Thanks all for this wealth of information!

vic

Donovan Banks wrote: I'm always trying to find the positives out of a bad situation. When I saw the issues with mine I thought I could make use of the opportunity and learn to tune and repair pianos.

thanks to my excellent procrastination skills I've done nothing about it. pity cos it really is a beaut.

Don you probably would have done better getting an upright organ ?

DonovanB

vic wrote: Don you probably would have done better getting an upright organ ?

I'm trying to get my wife to take that up again...

domhatch

vic wrote: Don you probably would have done better getting an upright organ ?

wouldn't we all...