Retail price with discount or lower sticker price?

Mr-M · 2011-06-29T15:25:39+00:00

There's been a lot of heated debate lately about SA prices for guitar gear. One of the things that kept coming up (aside from the obvious), is that a store's sticker price on the guitar/ amp/ pedal is always a non-discounted price. In other words you usually have to ask for your discounted price before you know what you'll pay. Some frustration was expressed at not being able to see up front what the price is just by looking at the price tag and some questions were raised as to why it is that way. The answer is simply because that's how it has always been. It's not like you can say to the guy in Incredible Connection that you saw the same laptop at Matrix for less and unless he beats the price, you walk. For non-guitar products, we usually find the product we want in the price range we're shopping in and pay the price without haggling. Strangely music shops still operate like 3rd world open air produce markets. The question to you, the average guitar player is this: would you prefer to see the lowest price advertised on the item up front? In other words, a similar system to the USA, where there is a Retail and Street Price - which is what you pay. I'm genuinely interested what guitarists out there think about this. Perhaps I can use your feedback to help change the industry for the better? Or do you prefer the current way of things - getting a good deal because the store gives you a discount? Many customers do genuinely prefer this, so if you're one of those, speak up. This is NOT ABOUT SA PRICES BEING TOO HIGH Therefore, no discussion on that please. It's been extensively covered elsewhere. Your opinions please?

Bob-Dubery

Norman86 wrote If it isnt, people will just buy off the net anyway.
Leaving the whole argument void and null, because we wont need music shops anymore.

Dead wrong!

You have X thousand rand in your pocket. Should you buy the Les Paul Singemonkey signature, the Fender Wham-o-blaster and if the latter then should you go for that one with the "vintage profile" maple neck or the one with the "modern" neck and the rosewood fingerboard?

You can't go down to Take 2 or whatever on-line stop you prefer, have a cup of coffee, try them out and make a decision based on what you've just experienced. Nor can you ask the guitar tech for an opinion about the way the guitars are constructed.

If we lose shops we will lose a lot and it will be a case we don't know what we've got until it's gone.

And generally this is the concern I have about this particular debate and the regular charges that we are being ripped off in SA.

We are asserting that there is some kind of intrinsic dishonesty or exploitation in the SA musical industry business and we start describing why it's bad (sometimes with some kind of factual basis) and what should be done.

I hope we've thought it through carefully and asked ourselves if we really want the system that we're calling for.

Wizard

Buying online seems like a fantastic idea ... until something goes wrong.
Then you can lose the whole purchase price and feel particularly foolish.

As has been said ad nauseam the store price includes allowances for:
- advice
- support
- try-it-out-ability
- the warm association of having acquired music from a fellow musician and human being

These actually carry very real value.

The people who utilize stores for advice and try-it-out-ability ... then buy online are just pirates.
That's like listening to the CD in the shop, then downloading it for free.

I have bought all my instruments from stores or 2nd hand and have absolutely no regrets.
Especially with my classical nylon ... where I ended up buying the instrument which was not supposed to be the best; but turned out to be.
And which I went back to play many times, and even got trusted forum members to try out.

I have bought 90% of the upgrade bits online because they just aren't available locally.
And I've had some nasty surprises which have cost me.

AlanRatcliffe

Norman86 wrote At least when im pricing an item in the states, im getting the US street price, and its the same, or close to the same from all the places you look...

You know why? Because the manufacturer fixes the minimum price in the US. They say to the stores "you will not sell for less than..." - something which is not legal in this country thanks to consumer protection and price fixing laws. It's also something which they can do in the US because stores have a higher turnover rate, so can afford to sell for the absolute minimum price - especially the online stores who have a much lower overhead.

I must be honest, if im going to buy a set of strings, i buy a few sets at a time... and i dont mind buying online...
even from SA vendors...

If the local stores go, so do the distribution channels, and the local online stores follow...

importing the other stuff... im sure it can be done at a more reasonable cost... there are ways, and people go out of their way to find these ways!

Yes of course we do - I buy spares from a dozen different online suppliers. But there are limits too, and every now and then, it turns around to bite you in the backside. Like:
- my Weber speakers which cost $240 to ship, instead of the quoted $120 (too heavy for mail or any option other than courier)
- the guitar I bought where the case was one inch too long for USPS ($90), so I had to pay $350 shipping via Fed Ex (and when it got here it was a loose fit in the case - I could have got the guy to buy a brand new form-fitting case and still saved money).
- Or buying tolex or grillecloth, which comes in long rolls (and they won't fold it), so you have to pay courier prices.
- Or UPS, who "lost" my Kinman pickups and then routed the replacements (from Australia) via Tennessee.
- Or someone I know who bought a very expensive guitar and was charged 30% duties (and then 14% VAT) by SARS - because it came in a plush leather case.

After all, a saving is a saving.

You would by from the store with the best service! even if it cost a little more!

Make up your mind. ?

chris77

The bastard in this story is Perception. Once you find out more and can place everything in context, it becomes less muddled. (Still doesn't mean we should like it just because we understand it better though) The Perception is a: - Stores have an excessive mark-up and b: - If you're not playing the game right, you will get ripped off. It has taken heaven knows how many posts to try and break this Perception in this forum, and still not everybody is convinced. Now imagine how hard it will be for the industry to shake this Perception among the thousands and thousands of local musos who aren't members of this forum and not privy to the info we have here? Not going to be easy hey. Perhaps Alan's next book can have a chapter on the local industry and how to navigate the system to get the best deals....? He-he, hell maybe not. Then there will still be a few of us grouches who complain about how the noobs that have read the book are getting better deals than the rest..... ?

Keira-WitherKay

lets face the reality .we in a recession that seems to be heading the wrong way ....electricty up 25% , toll gate fee's at 60ca km or hopefully less, rates increases, ect ect ect .. so everyone bar the few financially privillaged, will always be shopping for the best deal, and stores if they want to stay afloat through the recession will always offer low low deals or they will lose the sale to the next store..cos lets face it we all need food/electricity /mortgages to be paid but we can make do without that "next" guitar or pedal even if we really GASSING for it , so never fear if you in the market you will find a deal out there ...... if you shop around ......

and an interesting fact .is i recently wanted a new specific item ....and knew who the local importers were( they were also a music store) , i called them for a quote...... they gave me one i asked if thats best price they said yes, then i went to another store and in passing mentioned the item and they said they could get it if i wanted...i thought no way cos if they get it from the importer then they also add mark up and i pay more......but i said at how much ??? and the store that was not the importer was about 10% cheaper than the importers price.........go figure ....so the long story is to say ...ask around even if you think that you have the best price ...you may be surprised....... oh and of course i bought the item through the cheaper store......

AlanRatcliffe

You'll probably find the importer is careful to stick to the previously agreed upon discounts. Ironically the same stores that will usually undercut them on price (in some cases making a point to do so) are usually the first to scream "unfair advantage" and threaten a boycott the importers products when an importer's own store undercuts them on a quote.

Ray

I had the same experience which I spoke with Bob about and I also went for the cheaper one. Now in that argument I see maybe an attempt at a bit of cartel or something I mean this previously agreed discounts and so forth. Why would I have a previously agreed discount? I dont know so I'm asking. I actually dont have a problem with the way the stores do business.

Bob-Dubery

Alan Ratcliffe wrote You'll probably find the importer is careful to stick to the previously agreed upon discounts. Ironically the same stores that will usually undercut them on price (in some cases making a point to do so) are usually the first to scream "unfair advantage" and threaten a boycott the importers products when an importer's own store undercuts them on a quote.

What are we saying here?

I am the SA franchise holder for the Ray-o-matic line of pedals. Are we saying that I agree to not drop my price below a certain point so that the other shops stay interested?

I suppose it may make some sense, because even if another store buys a pedal from me to sell to Keira then I am still getting something on the deal.

In which case the moral of the story would seem to be "never buy anything from the distributor".

Jack-Flash-Jr

X-rated Bob wrote
Alan Ratcliffe wrote You'll probably find the importer is careful to stick to the previously agreed upon discounts. Ironically the same stores that will usually undercut them on price (in some cases making a point to do so) are usually the first to scream "unfair advantage" and threaten a boycott the importers products when an importer's own store undercuts them on a quote.
What are we saying here?

I am the SA franchise holder for the Ray-o-matic line of pedals. Are we saying that I agree to not drop my price below a certain point so that the other shops stay interested?

I suppose it may make some sense, because even if another store buys a pedal from me to sell to Keira then I am still getting something on the deal.

In which case the moral of the story would seem to be "never buy anything from the distributor".

This is all off topic...

In the original scenario it boils down to:

S (saleperson's price)
M (manager or other salesperson's price)
U (upset)

Inside ONE store at the moment:
S - M = U

If there is a single stickered final best price:
S - M = U = 0

AlanRatcliffe

X-rated Bob wrote I am the SA franchise holder for the Ray-o-matic line of pedals. Are we saying that I agree to not drop my price below a certain point so that the other shops stay interested?

As the importer and retailer, you theoretically have an advantage over other retailers because you have both a wholesale and a retail markup. But it makes sense not to undercut other retailers (who are your wholesale customers). I say theoretically, because in reality, most of the retailers are separate companies from the importers - many are owned by the same company or group as an importer, but they operate independently and have no advantages when it comes to cost price - they are buying the items from the same companies at the same price as the other stores. They have their own overheads too.

In which case the moral of the story would seem to be "never buy anything from the distributor".

Once again, this way of working has mostly been undercut. Most stores seem to default to 25 - 30% discount these days.

Keira-WitherKay

? i had an interesting experience today . i was in a store checking out a MIJ fender custom tele (2nd hand) and i asked the price i was told 7K and then i proceeded to demo trhe guitar ...... and spoke to the manager , and asked what the best price was.and he said 7K ? and i pushed and said surely you can drop down a bit .and he said "no" "7K' and i asked why ..and hes said he has had many people interested in that guitar and now it's about who will raise the money first ........ i was thinking of this thread while all this was happening ? so yes seems some people do stick to their guns... but only when the item is in demand...... but that aside .. the guitar is not worth 7 K to me so i'm not gonna be one of the so called many waiting in line.......... but if he said 5.5K or 6K even i might have bitten ...... so i guess even the buyer puts a maximum value on what they looking at ........ regardless of the ticket price...... so i guess the next time you in a store ask yourself honestly how much would you be prepared to pay for the item even before you hear the discount and decide like that .......

Jack-Flash-Jr

Keira WitherKay wrote ? i had an interesting experience today . i was in a store checking out a MIJ fender custom tele (2nd hand) and i asked the price i was told 7K and then i proceeded to demo trhe guitar ...... and spoke to the manager , and asked what the best price was.and he said 7K ? and i pushed and said surely you can drop down a bit .and he said "no" "7K' and i asked why ..and hes said he has had many people interested in that guitar and now it's about who will raise the money first ........ i was thinking of this thread while all this was happening ? so yes seems some people do stick to their guns... but only when the item is in demand...... but that aside .. the guitar is not worth 7 K to me so i'm not gonna be one of the so called many waiting in line.......... but if he said 5.5K or 6K even i might have bitten ...... so i guess even the buyer puts a maximum value on what they looking at ........ regardless of the ticket price...... so i guess the next time you in a store ask yourself honestly how much would you be prepared to pay for the item even before you hear the discount and decide like that .......

flatfourfan

I'd love for the final price to be on the item, I just don't see them changing it anytime soon as many think it's part of the music store/ customer relationship.

Norman86

Well, i went to buy strings the other day...
Electric, acoustic, and violin...
4 packs of guitar strings, 1 pack of violin...
and i got no discount...
Funny though, the previous time i DID! So obviously i was a little pissed, but i said nothing!
Not to worry though, i got discount from somewhere else on a completely different item, at more than double the discount i would have received! So the universe was in my favour there!

But while i was there, a funny thing happened...
one of the salesmen had fudged a customer quotation and already sent it to the customer...
So it was a rush by the store to "fix" the discounted price.
And someone there said something interesting too, that according to the CPA, because of that quotation the customer was sent, he can force them to sell that product, whatever it was, at the price they quoted on the original quotation.

Isnt THIS kind of thing enough reason to have a final price on a sticker???
Save embarrasing the store's name?

flatfourfan

Norman86 wrote Well, i went to buy strings the other day...
Electric, acoustic, and violin...
4 packs of guitar strings, 1 pack of violin...
and i got no discount...
Funny though, the previous time i DID! So obviously i was a little pissed, but i said nothing!
Not to worry though, i got discount from somewhere else on a completely different item, at more than double the discount i would have received! So the universe was in my favour there!

But while i was there, a funny thing happened...
one of the salesmen had fudged a customer quotation and already sent it to the customer...
So it was a rush by the store to "fix" the discounted price.
And someone there said something interesting too, that according to the CPA, because of that quotation the customer was sent, he can force them to sell that product, whatever it was, at the price they quoted on the original quotation.

Isnt THIS kind of thing enough reason to have a final price on a sticker???
Save embarrasing the store's name?

I've had something very similar, I bought something and was quoted a price of R450 (after some discount), so I said order it. It arrived a few days later and I could see that there was an issue. It arrived from the supplier and the price that they were charged for it was R550. The floor price was supposed to be R720 with discount about R650-R680.

Yeah it backfired on them, but they stuck to their guns and delivered what they promised. But you just know that some poor sod isn't going to get discount on something in order to cover that loss.

Norman86

Well in this case, it sounded like a huge discrepancy...
So i felt sorry for the salesmen as he has done some effort for me before to get me the Martin Eric Clapton strings i love on my acoustic!

But for me, just happening once on a smaller value item would be enough to say:

Some music shop wrotewe put the lowest price on the sticker so we cant fu the price up!

BMU

I can't for the life of me understand why they'd put a higher price on the sticker. EVERYONE gets the "open secret, standard 20% discount". Even without haggling.

Don't they know they risk losing sales from naive first-time buyers who don't know about the 'open secret' and may just walk away?

Or is the sticker price really the price for buying on credit terms? With a standard 20% discount for "cash" i.e. payment in full? I got that idea along the line somewhere years ago.

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