Taylor 110E String Height

ET-Phone-Home

Hey guys, just got a hell of a deal on Gumtree the other day for a Taylor 110E. I absolutely adore the tone on this guitar, however the action is quiet a lot higher
than I'm use to. On my old Walden 630ce I sanded down the bridge saddle to bring the action a bit lower and that did wonders, however I feel that it affected the sustain on the guitar.

Would this assessment be correct? Would lowering the bridge saddle affect the tone / sustain of the guitar? I'm wondering if I should just leave the action on the Taylor and just learn
to play it that way, especially if higher action gives a better tone / sustain.

By the way as far as I can tell the string gauge is 12. I got the guitar like that. I normally play on 10 gauge though.

Your help and guitar wisdom is much appreciated ?

Jacquesg4j

I like the action on my accoustic quite high because I play with 10's mostly (*dodging tomatoes)... Higher action gives more volume and it does affect the sustain.

Squonk

Heck, 10's ??? that's quite extreme. I tried 11's once and thought I had forgotten how to play.

My Takamine seems to love 12's

Jacquesg4j

The sound from the 10s just works for me. They are so nice and bright (go listen to my entry under may challenge please vote topic)

Johnny-B

ET, before you take out the saddle and sand it down, check the neck relief as this also affects string height. If you are not sure how to do this there is a technical sheet on the Taylor Guitars website herehttp://www.taylorguitars.com/global/pdfs/truss_rod_adjustment.pdf. Incidentally, Taylor's standard for strings on their acoustics is 12s.

chris77

Why does it happen though? I've also noticed a change in volume when dropping my action. But why is this?

Bob-Dubery

Lowering the saddle can have an impact on tone because the angle at which the strings break over the saddle is reduced, therefore downwards pressure on the saddle is reduced.

That guitar has arrived in Johannesburg in winter from... wherever it came from. Jo'burg in the winter is very dry, and I'd expect that to have an effect on a solid top guitar. However, usually the consequence of the wood drying out is that the top goes slightly concave, the bridge drops and the action gets low.

It's not necessarily the bridge. Could be the nut. Could be the truss-rod.

Note
1) Try playing the guitar capoed at the first fret. If things get a lot easier then start suspecting the nut
2) The truss rod effects action but that it is not it's primary purpose. If the neck relief is not correct then by all means use the truss rod. However if the neck relief is OK and the action is still a problem then resist the urge to flatten out the neck to lower the action - all you will do is create a different problem.

If you saved big money then take a little of what you've saved and have it set up properly. Phone around for prices or take it into a shop for them to have a look at. BE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE GETTING - EG are they going to polish frets? If they tune the nut is that going to cost you more? Remember it's not a guitar you bought from them so they don't owe you any favours.

Simply sanding down the saddle because the action is high is not the way to go. Figure out what the problem is first. It MAY be the saddle, but it's not a given.

If you suspect the nut then take it to somebody who knows what they're doing. I tweak truss rods from time to time, I might even sand down a saddle (if I have a suitably flat surface) but the nut? No way, Jose. Nuts I leave to the experts.

See http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenSetup/TrussRods/TrussRodAdj/tradj.html for some helpful notes on checking and setting neck relief.

See http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenSetup/NutAction/nutaction.html for checking the nut.

Maybe the 12s are just more than you can stand. I know a guy who has 9s on his acoustic ? He finds my guitars (strung with 13s) unplayable.

Norman86

dont forget that acoustic strings sound different too...
eg... D'addario EXP strings dont sound nearly as good as the Martin "Eric Clapton" strings. to me anyways...
heavier strings also add volume, where the light strings dont!
Possibly to do with the increased pressure on the saddle?!

acoustic is a game on its own from what i have discovered!
and i actually think its harder to get a grip on snake oil vs truth in acoustic, where on electric things are much more black and white!

chris77

Thanks for explaining XrB and Zohn! Makes a bit more sense now ? It must be a very fine line to get right hey. I wonder how much maths go into a high-end or custom built acc.? Is there science involved, or just trail and error that builds experience. There must be a way to measure the average torque a set of certain strings exert. Then it's a bit of calculator yoga to come up with an ideal amount per guage and what the best ratio between angle and height will be to achieve it. The resonance of the wood would also be a factor, but since that varies the best you can hope for is a std formula to bring out the best in the wood, regardless of how good the best might be.

Bob-Dubery

chris77 wrote: Thanks for explaining XrB and Zohn! Makes a bit more sense now ? It must be a very fine line to get right hey. I wonder how much maths go into a high-end or custom built acc.? Is there science involved, or just trail and error that builds experience. There must be a way to measure the average torque a set of certain strings exert. Then it's a bit of calculator yoga to come up with an ideal amount per guage and what the best ratio between angle and height will be to achieve it. The resonance of the wood would also be a factor, but since that varies the best you can hope for is a std formula to bring out the best in the wood, regardless of how good the best might be.

Well there's more to it than that - otherwise guitars would all sound the same. Taylors don't sound like Martins. Martins don't sound like Lowdens etc.

But the fundamentals are the same - and especially the one we're talking about here. You want a good break angle over the saddle to give you volume and tone.

With strings it's not just the gauge that effects tension but material as well. I use phosphor bronze 13s. They have a little more mass and a little more tension than 80:20 13s.

Ask about that Taylor and the strings that can be used. What is it built to take? I used to have a Taylor Big Baby (wish I still did actually) and I was told not to go to 13s on that. OTOH my Morgan is built like a tank and the maker says it will take 13s easy (Sez Adamson has a Morgan and he has 14s on it). Some of those old Martins with the scalloped braces won't take 13s.

ET-Phone-Home

Hey guys, thanks for all the replies ? I really appreciate you guys taking the time to explain these things to myself and chris77 ?
Everything you guys have said make sense to me. I've decided to sell my Taylor though, just seem to prefer the tone of my Walden G630ce.
Though the Taylor is better built and has more volume, I just prefer my Walden. But I'm going to try a little experiment, going to try
11 gauge strings and see how that will sound, hopefully it will add some bottom end and give more tension. I will also check the curve
of the neck when I put the 11's on. Don't want to jump to 12's just yet, need to get my finger use to the higher tension.

I know this question is off topic but it's something that I've been thinking about for a long time now. My Walden has a plastic nut and
pegs (sorry if this isn't the correct term) and I've always wondered if changing these to maybe Bone or Tusk will help give a bit more
sustain and note clarity? I've read somewhere that a nut change will affect the tone of the open strings as when you push down on
the fret with your finger, your finger becomes the nut. Is this right?

Bob-Dubery

ET Phone Home wrote: I know this question is off topic but it's something that I've been thinking about for a long time now. My Walden has a plastic nut and
pegs (sorry if this isn't the correct term) and I've always wondered if changing these to maybe Bone or Tusk will help give a bit more
sustain and note clarity? I've read somewhere that a nut change will affect the tone of the open strings as when you push down on
the fret with your finger, your finger becomes the nut. Is this right?

ET-Phone-Home

I'm a strong believer of the "if ain't broke" saying. With all things equal and if you can hear the difference of tusq or bone it will be very minimal and when playing open strings only. Some people claim a huge difference which is totally subjective and I'm somewhat skeptical about it.
Unless you have a real problem with the sound or playability of your guitar, I say leave the nut and rather experiment with strings - few things can revive a good guitar like a new set of strings. You can always "upgrade" when you replace it for wear.
When you fret the finger board between the 2nd and 3rd, then the 3rd fret is effectively the "fretted nut" if there is such a word, certainly not your finger.
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Ok cool, ye I've read many blogs where people claim that changing the nut, saddle and pins to bone or tusk from plastic makes a huge difference, especially with acoustic guitars, so was just curious.
The playability is great and the sound is good, however I just feel that the guitar could use a little more sustain and a bit more of a lower end. But I'll try installing 11 gauge and see how that helps with
the lower end. I remember a long time ago going from 10's to 11's and that helped the lower end quiet a bit, though I struggled with the higher tension. Thanks for the reply bud

ET-Phone-Home

What's the saddle made of? That's where material is going to make the biggest difference.

But see Zohn's advice: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

As already noted in this thread, strings can make a big difference to the sound of an acoustic. Not just the gauge, but the alloy used as well.

I did quite a bit of experimenting a couple of years back with a very nice acoustic that somehow seemed to be giving not quite all it could. I tried some different gauges and then switched alloys, from 80:20 to phosphor bronze. Bingo!

You might go a different route, make different selections - my point is that strings make a difference. Not just that they're new and sounding shiny and bright, but different constructions offer different tones too.
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The saddle is made of plastic, as is the nut and pins.

Well I use GHS Vintage Bronze, and for me, these are the best I've tried. They last longer than all the other strings I've tried and they have a nice balance between bright and mellow, not to bright and not to mellow either. Maybe I should just try the 11 gauge of that and see how it works. That might also compensate for the extra slackness when I lowered the saddle.

Bob-Dubery

ET Phone Home wrote: The saddle is made of plastic, as is the nut and pins.

Well if you want to try to make a difference then do the saddle first. Going to Tusq should make a difference.

The test for good saddle material is to take the saddle (or the blank you propose to fashion into a saddle) and drop it onto a glass table or something similar. Good materials will make a distinct pinging noise.

ET-Phone-Home

Ok cool I'll definitely do that then ? Thanks Bob. Going to try get some new strings as well and see what difference that makes.
Will post the results of the higher gauge strings sometime ? Just need to get some packing done first.