50. cal for self defence?

MIKA-the-better-one

Gun licence in this country just doubles your chances of going to jail for self defence..... just try shoot a intruder, he will become the voctim and you will go to jail...

G-Man

I have also heard that it is very difficult to get a gun license these days, have you considered an alternative like a paintball gun? You can load them up with solid plastic rounds and pepper rounds. I'm considering getting one because there have been some late night visitations in my complex. Just a thought.

Warren

I was a gun owner, and was relieved of my firearm during a hi-jacking.

That, for me, is the biggest problem: you think you'll be ready, but you'll be outnumbered and outgunned, and usually at a very big disadvantage. It becomes an even bigger issue if you have other people with you to protect: hijackers have no such worries.

I still like the idea of a firearm for "home defense", but in that case I'd prefer a shotgun (which are difficult to get permits for). Again though, there is a reason robberies take place at night, when you're asleep and unprepared.

So, in short, I like guns, but gun ownership on its own does very little to help you avoid becoming the victim of violent crime, and may in fact increase it. Particularly if criminals know you carry a gun, you will immediately be a target.

Speak to as many gun owners as you can, maybe go for a course in firearm usage (which you'll need to do anyway if you apply for a license), and then decide what you want to do. I would personally advise against carrying the firearm at all times, but the catch is you obviously want it ready when you need it. It's a tricky thing.

Bob-Dubery

Isis wrote: In the space of just a week I managed to go from liberal hippy douche to gun loving redneck. This is partially due to the fact that two people I know had been the victims of armed robberies. Call me old fashioned, but I don't think it's cricket to press a gun against a pregnant lady's head and tell her to lie on her stomach. I just read the post about the 50. Cal rifle and it would seem that there are quite a lot of gun enthusiast on the forum.

I'd like to apply for a firearm license and was wondering if you guys could maybe give me some advice on how to apply, how long it will take, cost etc.

Thanks guys, appreciate it.

Think it through carefully. Most of the time you having a firearm isn't going to stop a robbery. And if the felons have their firearms out then it gets very difficult - you make a move and they may start shooting.

raithza

alternatively, move down to the cape.....

MikeM

Yea my brother was very keen to use a gun for safety. But personally I believe it will escalate things, and make it more likely for you to lose your life. Humanity is in a really sad state in some ways ☹

Tonedef

+1 to what Warren, Bob and Mike said. Firearms give a false sense of security. A combat knife is actually a more versatile self defense measure if you know how to use it and can leverage the element of surprise. It gives you more scope for analysing the situation and doesnt make you an automatic target.

Bob-Dubery

My current thinking, based on recent events in my neck of the woods, is that the best defence (not 100% - nothing is) is a well motivated, purposeful CPF. Our CPF got a new leader a few months back. Since then he's done a deal with the police that the roaming police vehicles will carry cell phones with known, published numbers and those numbers are distributed throughout the community. There's a feedback mechanism (we have an SAP representative at every public CPF meeting) so that if people call those numbers and there is no response then the matter can be investigated. This works! You see something dodgy, you call 'em and they come, and they thank you for it because they do want to catch the bad guys.

There's been interaction with the municipality to get street lights working and keep them working.

Recently there was a joint CPF/SAP operation to clear out the wetlands at the bottom of the suburb. I was part of that. I was amazed at what we found in terms of well camoflaged, informal dwellings full of stolen goods and tools for hacking down power lines. We destroyed the dwellings, loaded all the swag into a police van, and put everything else into a skip and set fire to it.

In our area there has been an increase in burglary but low house theft (the differentiator being that, in SAP parlance, "House theft" happens when you're at home and there is thus an element of violence). The CPF get weekly stats from the SAP and straight after that clean out at the vlei burglary rates went down and stayed down for a while. A month later we had another operation in the vlei and the growing burglary problem is now growing negatively (for the burglars). You might say that the SAP should be conducting those raids. Well they do, but they don't have enough strength in numbers to launch the sort of destructive (for the bad guys) raids that I'm talking about here.

One thing you should do is report EVERY crime to the SAP - even if you don't expect anything to happen. They allocate resources based on their stats, and any crime that is not reported does not form part of their stats.

Get involved. It's your neighbourhood. In my experience (see above) the SAP are very willing to work with the community to put pre-emptive measures into place. Pre-emptive is better. Much better to reduce the likelihood of a burglary than to spend time plotting about what you're going to do to the burglar.

Use common sense too. One of the current initiatives from our CPF is to get people to not leave their wheely bins outside at night. Bring 'em back in to your property and keep them away from fences - they get used as "ladders" by people who are up to no good.

Warren

Bob makes good points.

For me, your absolute best defense is awareness, at all times.

I actually saw the guys who hijacked me before it happened. I was walking to my car at my ex g/f's house in the morning, and I saw them walk past the house. I thought they were looking at me a bit too much, but then they seemed to move passed and I brushed it off as my own "paranoia". Turns out I should have trusted my gut.

Keep aware, and if you suspect something rather trust your gut and go past that driveway and double back later. Or don't drive out. Or don't open the door. Or whatever it is.

Your best chances are to be as prepared as possible, and then avoid bad situations as much as you can by being aware and behaving defensively.

Defensive behaviour is actually really important. Once, when I still owned my gun, I had this idiot driving on my bumper, so I tapped my brakes to teach him a "lesson" which only inflamed his temper and caused him to follow me and stop next to me at a nearby traffic light. He was trying to climb out of his car with a club in hand, screaming at me, with his poor wife hanging onto his leg. Problem was: I had my gun cocked and locked on my lap, and suddenly had a horrible dilemna - if this guy tried to actually assault me, I would have had to draw that firearm and then possibly use it. All because of a situation I could have avoided if I'd just swallowed my ego and behaved more defensively.

Best to avoid or defuse situations, than escalate them. If it escalates and you're armed, whole different ball game.

Isis

Thanks guys, a lot of helpful responses. I do agree with those that maintain that a weapon will more likely than not get you shot. However I don't intend on carrying it with me 24/7 as it will be primarily for home defense.

The problem is my location. I live right up against the Magaliesberg, so my yard is adjacent to two fields. Another major problem I have is that the security company or the police takes ages to get to my actual house because of the location. My neighbor was robbed yesterday, and even though the girl that was home at the time phoned the police, it took them almost 30 minutes to get there. Luckily I do have an advantage as far as my house is concerned, seeing as there is only one way into my house. Hopefully with my numerous dogs and the amount of sawing they'll have to do to get to my bedroom it wll buy me enough time to alert the police and maybe take up a defensive position in my bedroom. As far as I'm concerned the firearm will be the last line of defense. I'm just not in the place right now where I want to take on an assailant with a guitar or a vacuum cleaner.

Warren

Isis wrote: Thanks guys, a lot of helpful responses. I do agree with those that maintain that a weapon will more likely than not get you shot. However I don't intend on carrying it with me 24/7 as it will be primarily for home defense.

The problem is my location. I live right up against the Magaliesberg, so my yard is adjacent to two fields. Another major problem I have is that the security company or the police takes ages to get to my actual house because of the location. My neighbor was robbed yesterday, and even though the girl that was home at the time phoned the police, it took them almost 30 minutes to get there. Luckily I do have an advantage as far as my house is concerned, seeing as there is only one way into my house. Hopefully with my numerous dogs and the amount of sawing they'll have to do to get to my bedroom it wll buy me enough time to alert the police and maybe take up a defensive position in my bedroom. As far as I'm concerned the firearm will be the last line of defense. I'm just not in the place right now where I want to take on an assailant with a guitar or a vacuum cleaner.

If you're out in a remote-ish sort of area that you might be able to obtain a shot-gun license, and that's definitely first prize for home defense, so look at that first. Pump-action or semi-auto mind you: hunting shotguns aren't going to do you much good. Otherwise, if a pistol is pretty much the only option, go for the largest calibre firearm you feel comfortable managing. I'm a .45 kind of guy, but there's a lot of stuff to choose from.

Motivating for the license is another story.

aubs1

+1 Warren and Bob on "Awereness" ...........

@ Isis, forget about a rifle as a self-defence weapon, it's not! A handgun is what you need ......

@ G-Man, are you kidding?? Paintball?? Plastic rounds and Pepper?? And that assault rifle pic? You will NEVER get a licence for that thing, unless you are JuJu's body-guard..... :?

Just Saturday Stratisfear and myself had quite a long discussion on guns and the responsible ownership of them ..... the pros and cons ......

As an ardent gun nut ....... my stance is like all other responsible gun owners:

"Rather have a gun and not need one, than need a gun and not have one"

BTW. There are no guarantees that a gun will get you out of a situation, but that's my choice!!

I always think of a gun licence as the same as a driver's licence. Think about it, there are so many similarities. You need to always be aware of what is happening around you. You are responsible for your life, the lives of those with you, and the lives of others. And most importantly, in a given situation, you need to make decisions, (normally in a split second), and act on them, so as to avoid or safeguard your life, and the lives of others.

Isis

Our yard is technically registered as a reservation and my father does own a 12 gauge pump action. I was looking for a smaller handgun though, along the 9mm range. I don't think caliber will be that much of an issue if you know how to handle a weapon. Special forces usually make use of the double tap method by pulling the trigger twice in quick succession to fire of two rounds in a very short period of time. I reckon with a bit of practice you could become relatively good at this. I very much doubt you'll be as fast or as accurate as the SAS or Delta, but when the time comes it might be a handy skill to have.
I'm also not that concerned with the criminals laying charges against me. My friend who also happens to be the state prosecutor for my area told me that people run into legal problems because they use force that is disproportionate to the threat i.e shooting the guy in the back of the head when he's running away etc. If an assailant enters your place of dwelling armed with a deadly weapon and you feel that you and your loved ones are in mortal danger, you are within your right to shoot the guy.

Warren

Isis wrote: Our yard is technically registered as a reservation and my father does own a 12 gauge pump action. I was looking for a smaller handgun though, along the 9mm range. I don't think caliber will be that much of an issue if you know how to handle a weapon. Special forces usually make use of the double tap method by pulling the trigger twice in quick succession to fire of two rounds in a very short period of time. I reckon with a bit of practice you could become relatively good at this. I very much doubt you'll be as fast or as accurate as the SAS or Delta, but when the time comes it might be a handy skill to have.
I'm also not that concerned with the criminals laying charges against me. My friend who also happens to be the state prosecutor for my area told me that people run into legal problems because they use force that is disproportionate to the threat i.e shooting the guy in the back of the head when he's running away etc. If an assailant enters your place of dwelling armed with a deadly weapon and you feel that you and your loved ones are in mortal danger, you are within your right to shoot the guy.

The 12 gauge is the best home-defense weapon you can ask for: it should put an assailant down with a single shot, regardless of where it hits. Whereas a pistol generally needs to hit something vital to be completely lethal, a short-range shotgun blast is devastating, and much easier to aim. I once heard a saying like 'If a burglar gets a chill down his spine at the "click-click" of a pistol slide racking, he'll be out of the window before the piss makes it down his pants-leg if he here's the "clack-clack" of a shotgun.' ?

Calibre is important. There is a lot of debate around the effectiveness of different calibres: but in general there is a consensus that bigger is better. I owned a 9mm, but I actually like compact .45s like the Glock 30. It's a small handgun, but the round is a very effective, proven calibre and I'd prefer it to a 9mm in an urban setting (less penetration risk, depending upon the rounds used).

As for double-taps etc. nice ideas, but not practical for civilians unfortunately. Spec Ops troops go in prepared, in groups and usually with the element of suprise. They have flash-bangs and grenades and night-vision goggles and SMGs / assault rifles. They have body armour and helmets. They are also drilled daily to engage in openly hostile situations and will have a tactical understanding of the environment before they commence the assault. This isn't the same as getting up in the dead of night, wobbling over to the lounge to check out that funny noise you heard.

In close-quarters civilian and police exchanges, most pistol shots miss. That's why you want the shots that do hit to do as much damage as possible. In the heat of the moment, there is a lot of firing from the hip on both sides. And in fact, even Spec Ops soldiers will fire in bursts if they're in a hurry, just to be sure. And these are guys who do this for a living...

Isis

Lol. Good point Warren. I don't think training at a shooting range will necessarily correlate to real world application in your house. Hence special forces' emphasis on training in as realistic simulations as possible. The average person will have about a 50/50 chance of shooting himself in the leg as opposed to shooting the burglar. The only reason why I'd prefer a smaller handgun vs say a 45. is given my experience shooting my dad's .45 revolver vs the 9mm beretta, I've always found it much easier to control the 9mm as well as shoot accurately. I don't really see the practical advantages of using a larger round if I'm more likely to miss and rip off my arms in the process. Maybe I should beef up though...

Warren

Isis wrote: Lol. Good point Warren. I don't think training at a shooting range will necessarily correlate to real world application in your house. Hence special forces' emphasis on training in as realistic simulations as possible. The average person will have about a 50/50 chance of shooting himself in the leg as opposed to shooting the burglar. The only reason why I'd prefer a smaller handgun vs say a 45. is given my experience shooting my dad's .45 revolver vs the 9mm beretta, I've always found it much easier to control the 9mm as well as shoot accurately. I don't really see the practical advantages of using a larger round if I'm more likely to miss and rip off my arms in the process. Maybe I should beef up though...

No, that's a very fair point. As I said, it's about the biggest round you're comfy with. .45s have some hefty recoil, and the 9mm rounds are much kinder in that regard. Always choose what you feel is most comfortable and usable for you. If you have experience with both and prefer the 9mm, definitely go with that!

aubs1

Isis wrote: The only reason why I'd prefer a smaller handgun vs say a 45. is given my experience shooting my dad's .45 revolver vs the 9mm beretta, I've always found it much easier to control the 9mm as well as shoot accurately.

Agreed, if you feel happier with the 9mm, then that's what you should train with. I also have a .45 Colt 1911, and a compact .38 Super, but prefer a 9mm as a "carry" gun. Most of the US armed forces have switched to the Beretta 9mm long ago. But this is not about the armed forces or any other organizations, but about you and how you want to protect yourself. For me, it's not the caliber, (of course, I don't advocate anything LESS than a 9mm), it's how comfortable you are with it, and the amount of training (to be prepared for an eventuality) you are prepared to put in.

arjunmenon

Bob, Warren and Aubs made some big points.
Warren's post on calibre and shot placement was especially interesting, because most handgun owners advocate ease of use & shot placement more than anything. Aubs also mentioned the ease of use point (i.e. .45 vs. 9mm).
AFAIK (based on what limited training i've had - and speaking under correction), most handgun fights happen within a range of 30 yards. A 12 gauge rules itself out because you cannot bring it into action as quick as a handgun. Plus you have to consider the two triggers. And the fact that you'd take out 2 walls by default by firing inside the house. It has phenomenal stopping power though, much like the IMI DE 0.50 (ammo for the DE here is probably rarer than hen's teeth).
Secondly if there is more than one way to enter your house, the odds are already stacking up against you.
I have only had good experiences with the Webley mk4 (freebies left by the Brits for Indian cops, not much stopping power but good on accuracy), S&W 0.38 special (small and easily concealed) & CZ75 9mm (really nice weapon, had no issues with it - very similar in weight to the 1911)
Aubs should be able to give you more info on the 1911 and the Beretta 9mm (which is what cops in SA use IINM).
I would really love to train and get a license on the SIG P226 (it's lighter than the CZ or 1911 and can take a host of cartridges), but they're prohibitively expensive..and i'd rather just buy a guitar.
Interesting point on double taps, but AFAIK, it only comes with solid training and knowing how to avoid a jam (i.e. feed/extraction/ejection).

G-Man

Aubs1 wrote:

@ G-Man, are you kidding?? Paintball?? Plastic rounds and Pepper?? And that assault rifle pic? You will NEVER get a licence for that thing, unless you are JuJu's body-guard..... :?

Lol Aubs, that is a paintball gun. ? And you don't need a license, but yeah you're right. It's probably a bad idea trying to shoot a paintball gun at someone who is probably high on something and won't feel pain anyway, and has a real gun and thinks your gun is real and wants to kill you. I was just looking at alternatives, that's all ?

aubs1

Arjun Menon wrote: AFAIK (based on what limited training i've had - and speaking under correction), most handgun fights happen within a range of 30 yards. A 12 gauge rules itself out because you cannot bring it into action as quick as a handgun.

Absolutely right! I would never wanna run around a house or be in a car with a shotgun. Too cumbersome. You have a helluva lot better control with a handgun. Also, if in a home situation, if you had to fire a 9mm, I would wanna see the baddie who's gonna first think: "Now is that a shotgun, or a handgun?" They are normally cowards who don't think if you are gonna fight back!

About the 30m or yard range, right again ..... the whole idea about self-defense is to be ready, alert, and aware of what is happening around you all the time, much like driving a car, with practice, it becomes second nature ...... you don't have time to analyze, you just act instinctively.

About the "double-tap", a very misunderstood concept, there is no such thing! We learn to shoot 2 shots per target (at three targets, one meter apart, from 10 meters), reload, and do it again in sub-5 seconds, starting from a "hands surrender, gun in holster position". that's a total of 12 controlled shots, not 6 double taps, and you have to hit the target 12 times. Obviously, the faster you shoot, the better. But if you are just "double-tapping", you would probably have more misses than hits! This is what I'm talking about, this guy does it in just over 3 secs!!!........ btw. my wife can do this in just under 5 seconds as well....

And the World Champion ....... just to whet your appetite .......

However, I also believe that if you are not prepared to train/practice and become proficient with firearms, don't get one ....

Wow, I love this ........